Son rejected from Clinical Psychology PhD three times, what next steps?

[linz62]

Hi, my son has applied for a pHd in Clinical Psychology and has failed to get on three times. He has been an Assistant Psychologist for three years and has done well in both roles and has a first and a masters degree. I know that it is very competitive but I think the whole process is really harsh and the system very opaque - they get little feedback as to why they have been rejected. I feel that he has travelled along a cul-de -sac and that had he chosen another career, would be well established by this stage. He is very frustrated and doesn't know what route to take now. I don't think he will apply again. Would it be worth paying for career advisor support or contacting recruitment companies? As there is a shortage of Clinical Psychologists, I don't really understand why only 18% of applicants get places.

I assume that, given what a brutal process it is, and how few of those who apply get a place, that he had a Plan B, though? I think my friend who is now a lead clinical psychologist at one of the big hospitals only got in on her third try, or it might even have been her fourth. She definitely had a well worked-out backup plan, though, though it's now so long ago I can't remember what it was. Maybe working in addiction services.

The DClin process is thorough and yes, tough. I got in my second application.

My experience:
Psychology undergrad - 1st
Masters - Distinction with publication of dissertation
PhD in Psychology - with 3 papers published

3 years as a health care assistant on a mental health ward

3 years experience as an assistant psychologist

1 year experience as a research assistant psychologist working on a large trial: named author on a couple of papers

I applied to courses that valued academic achievement and research. I also had strong references from well known professors and a consultant clinical psychologist.

It’s very normal to be “rejected” a few times before obtaining even an interview.

My advice is to refine personal statement, obtain meaningful AP posts (that involve direct clinical work and not mostly admin). Also to have a life outside of psychology, my interview included a lot of discussion about me as a person.

There are people with the same 1sts, same masters, same AP roles. It’s saturated. They’re interested in how much you understand about the role of a CP, and how you’d be able to manage the research component and clinical component of the role. Some courses even look at a-level results to help with shifting through applications.

many friends I know who arent (yet) CPs went into social work, educational psychology, forensic psychology or research.

I don’t think it’s a case of giving up because you can always come back to the DClin. In my experience they do prefer more mature students, with life experience as well as academic and professional experience.

I work in a different health profession but it is also one in which competition for postgraduate training places is intense (50:1). Places are very limited because in a small profession there are simply not enough experienced staff to supervise large numbers of trainees. The advice given by GuidedMed is good.

there is a big bottleneck of not enough training places for clinical psychology and the universities are unable to increase the number of training places (due to funding rules).

I don't think a paid consultant will be able to help. The advice above from @GuidedMed is good. he can also look at alternatives like educational or occupational psychology.
here is a basic guide that might help you make sense of the options (he may already know most of this).
https://www.bps.org.uk/career-options-in-psychology

Would he consider social work? It is another route into direct clinical work in the mental health field.

It is very hard to be rejected and a disheartening process but it’s very very normal in my
experience for people to try several times (often more than 3) to be accepted on the DClinPsy. It is worth persisting if he really wants to do it. An alternative is to try for a Counselling Psychology doctorate instead. It’s self funded rather than paid by the nhs in the way clinical psychology is but the qualification entitles you to the same jobs and HCPC accreditation after qualification.

It’s brutal. I was in the same situation and gave up and requalified as a lawyer.

I moved country when I was rejected. Best thing I ever did.

My advice, think about all the other branches and associated jobs while also repeatedly applying. Occupational, counselling and other psychology. Social work, counselling, therapy, treatment, I mean even things like behavioural insights, behavioural economics. There’s a big world out there.

Has he moved Assistant posts to get varied experience with different client groups? Worth doing if possible, or varied sectors ie research assistant in a CP area.

It is disheartening but not that unusual. CP ttaining is funded with a decent ish salary so obviously popular.

I would encourage gaining more experience snd reapplying if he really wants to do it, but:

• lots of CP are increasingly disillusioned with NHS, and posts harder to find, so it may be worth at least looking into other related careers. The pay also isn't all that great for such a long slog!
• if he wants to work in mental health he could get in via other routes such as counselling psychology or an IAPT route (adult or CYP).

PhDs are overrated unless you have at least 10 years of experience in the field and you want to persue something very specifically.

Getting some decent experience in an area that has a specific pysch need i.e. forensic/NHS/Schools for at least 5 years. Then after that he can consider if he wants to try again with a clear focus on what he wants the research to be.

Has he tried international universities

He can do small cpd courses relating to mental health and psychology, go into mentoring, counselling, get loads of experience, you mentioned he has 3yrs as an assistant psychologist, unfortunately sometimes people need a bit more like 5 yrs experience being the minimum threshold.

Another thing, if he is working in a public hospital or clinic, see if he can go somewhere in a private hospital or health care setting, it'll be much better chances of him being accepted.

Wishing him all the best 🤞

I would disagree with this tbh. CP doctorates are NHS based, and probably view NHS/ University roles more favourably than private jobs.

Do you think so.. 🤔

A friend of mine was looking to get into healthcare after a temp cover ward job, and her mentor said getting private health care jobs are more looked at on the CV than nhs ones?

Thank you both for taking the time to reply. I will suggest the CPD courses to him. Is it easy to find them online? I wondered about the private sector but it seems that the pay is often lower than the NHS and I would have thought that as the training is within the NHS it would be an advantage to already have knowledge of how it works.

With regards to the shortage, I imagine clinical is suffering similar problems to Educational (and medicine and probably other sectors) in that training courses can only take as many students as they can find placements for. There are bottlenecks for this both in that you need enough practitioners to supervise (difficult in an overwhelmed service with staff shortages) and enough funds to pay bursaries (eternally difficult in the public sector).

His experiences are totally normal. It sucks, but that's how it is. Our local doctorate ed psych course had nearly 300 applicants for 10 places, all.of whom will have had similarly good backgrounds. Most won't even get an interview..

I may not know exactly what I’m talking about wrt Clinical Psychologist training but here’s my tuppence worth as a mental health nurse with several decades of experience.

i started as a HCA in a learning disability unit. At the time I was late teens/early twenties. My Charge Nurse encouraged me to do my nurse training saying ‘you’ve got O levels (I’m old, ok!) you don’t want to be a HCA your whole life’ so off I trotted to do my training (back then it was an apprenticeship type model and you could go in with O levels though I’ve since got a couple of A levels as well.)

It’s been a long time since I’ve worked on the wards, as I’ve been in the community and now working in Mental Health Liaison in a general hospital. But when I did work on the wards I was surprised at the amount of psychcology graduates working as HCAs while waiting for the small chance of get Psychology Assistant post so they can go and do the necessary training for the post graduate Clinical Psychologist posts. There just seemed to be a real bottleneck. These psychology graduates were doing the same jobs that 10 years earlier I was overqualified for with O levels!

it seemed many of them were chasing an impossible dream.

Granted this was in the mid 90s, I hope things have improved for them. But it seemed the Assistant Psychologist post was where they were getting stuck. So few posts but lots of people chasing them and working as a HCA to get a foot in the door.

I’d suggest that he goes for research assistant posts now (unfortunately most are short term). He has the practical experience working in the NHS and with patients and adding experience of field work and research methods, dealing with NHS research ethics, patient recruitment etc will really strengthen his application. I have co-supervised clinical psychology PhDs as a chartered psychologist and knowing the basics will mean less hand holding needed from supervisors. Although research methods are covered to various extents in some MScs, it usually just skims the surface of what is involved practically to complete a PhD.

Having said all this, I gave up on clinical training and became an academic, which is also an option for your son if he likes research. Once your feet are under the table in a research-active institution you can get support for funding for a PhD or complete a paid PhD alongside a research assistant post - still competitive but less so than clin psych training

Sure it's been mentioned, but can't he do his own research on his next steps???

Given his age and educational level, I think you need to let him problem solve this one himself and step back.

Agree! He'd surely (hopefully!) be mortified if he knew mummy was posting on the internet asking for career advice for him.

I suspect only two AP roles - presumably only two different client groups, is the problem. He needs wider experience. If he’s only been an AP for three years, and first applied 3 years ago, being blunt the first two applications were never going to succeed. 3 years experience is pretty much the minimum, most applicants will have much more. So he was presumably poorly advised, and if he’s serious needs to plug at it for another couple of years before plan B.

A DClinPsy is not the same as a PhD. And I think they make pretty clear what type of experience and candidates they want. Some of this advice isn't relevant or helpful, especially the bit about private sector work on the CV.

I have a few options for him. As everyone’s already said it’s completely normal.

He could try again- the most times I heard of someone who was an AP trying to get on the DClin was 7 times. He did get on at the 7th attempt.

He could make sure the courses he’s applying for suit his strengths. Some are known to be research intensive, others are known to be CBT intensive (for example).

He could plan a different training route for now, and revisit the DClin in a few years. Training could be as a CBT therapist, he could apply and complete a PHD in a University so he’s research competent or he could complete the PWP course or similar. Often, there are also social workers, nurses, teachers etc applying for DClin places so nothing would be wasted.

another option is to apply for courses without the bottleneck of the DClin but that fall under the Practitiner Psychologist title and so he’d be paid the same and could still work in mental health, physical health, forensics etc. so these would be Health Psychology, Forensic Psychology or Counselling Psychology.

For reference I have an under grad, masters, PhD and went to another route as a Pract Psychologist & we all apply for the same jobs.

Thank you again everyone for your very constructive replies. Yes, he is of course doing his own research, I am just giving some support at a time when he feels a bit lost. I think I am beginning to understand that the people who are successful in getting on the Dclin have even more experience than he has and even already have research pHds as someone has mentioned. As an outsider who is retired from an entirely different profession, it just seems madness to have to jump through so many hoops to get in to a job which is very stressful and not that well paid. There must be thousands of APs in the same position having failed to get on the course and now facing deciding to try again or change direction.