4 weeks in I am struggling

[SparklyBrickViper]

Recently promoted to CS Grade 7. I’m heading into my 4th week in the post and I am really struggling to make any headway.

There is clearly a lot of baggage with the team I’ve joined (lots of empty posts, constant firefighting to cover the work of those empty posts, bad feeling towards the G6 etc.). It’s a totally new policy area for me (and I’ve worked in a project management/operational delivery post) for the last decade.

I just can’t find an “in” into the team. They are all “nice” and happy to bombard me with “historical” information but getting answers to what is currently going on, being cc’d into emails or invites to meetings is like asking for the moon. Diaries are “closed” (I have asked for access so I can invite myself), I have asked for structures of work groups so I can work out when I need to attend meetings but nothing is forthcoming.

The SEO’s clearly do not want me getting involved and the implication is that I can get on with the relationship building side of my post but without any oversight of what the “branch” is doing.

I’m effectively a HoB without a branch. The wider structure is that there is one overarching Team, with three grade 7’s covering each “branch”. I’ve said I’m keen to establish our branch and was told “nice idea but there’s too much read across the wider team for us to work like that”. One G7 is in post, one G7 currently being recruited.

SEO’s are having meetings directly with DD or Director and I’m only hearing about them after they’ve taken place. Again today I’ve been in a Team meeting with nothing much to say, and then the SEO’s launch into huge monologues of what they are up too.

Remote working is clearly not helping but I have said I’ll come into the office full time - however if everyone is working remotely that’s not solving the issue.

Have spoken to my manager (G6) but got nowhere.

Even allowing for the old “knowledge is power dynamics” I am fighting a loosing battle.

I don’t know what to do in all honesty.

I’ve gone from being a “high performer” and the go to safe pair of hands in my old post to barely doing anything for most of the day other than reading reports/policy documents etc which are useful but I’ve always been hands on and I know I need to be doing to get going on this.

Am I just not up to the grade ? (I’ve been on a TDA for years and managed multiple large teams). I’m obligated to stay for 6 months before I can move but the thought of this situation for months is making me feel sick. I’m already dreading going to work every morning.

This sounds like a horrible and toxic situation. I would try and retain as much perspective as possible - if you've had multiple roles in the past with good feedback it's much more likely to be an issue with the current team and setup, than to be a problem with you as an individual.

You mentioned your grade 6 a couple of times - it sounds like they are not helping, are you able to speak to a different grade 6 or 7, or even a DD, to get some more insight into the situation? It could be that your g6 manager is not a particularly strong performer and part of the problem. They should be helping you define your goals and at the very least making sure they're using you as a useful resource.

Otherwise I would try and keep chipping away at relationship building. Could you - if not already - set up 1:1s with those in your team and try and build some rapport - ask them their views on the team and the department's set-up and try and work out where you might be able to add value from their perspective? And going into the office could be helpful - even if most people aren't in, just being able to have a few face to face conversations could help build those connections (people more likely to be honest with you about other things ongoing, or open up), and could be good for your headspace.

But honestly, if none of this works I'd probably start looking for new roles. You sound like a well rounded and thoughtful person who many teams would want to snap up.

Thank you @greenyorange. It is toxic.

I’ve spoken to the G7 appointed just before me (alongside), and they have similar feelings/experiance. The only difference is that her SEO roles are vacant and being recruited. Theoretically it should be “easier” for me as there is a team in place.

Grade 6 is quite frankly useless in the four weeks in post I’ve seen/spoken to him 121 for an hour. I’ve asked for a job description, my objectives, etc non forthcoming and he’s said things like “I’m not expecting you to produce anything now” which is making things worse for me.

121’s with my team set up. They are nice enough but still not copying me in. One has been quite open in his view that the G6 has recruited people (me) to just fill the post with no thought if they are capable.

Ugh! Sorry I’m just offloading now. It’s a new “division” so no wider contacts or friendly faces. To be honest everything from being recruited to accepting the post and finally starting has been hard work. My gut is telling me to get out as soon as I can; the hard head in me says that’s exactly what people want so they are proven right.

I’m swinging between feeling like I’m out of my depth and that this is what a G7 is - limited supervision and manage the team but I just expected some direction when settling in.

@SparklyBrickViper I would be checking if there are any organisational “ways of working”. Work calendars are not personal and as a manager if you ask for access you should be given it. It’s not about micro managing but having over sight.

I would use the 1:2:1s to put in some very specific objectives about open communications and inviting you to meetings etc.

They’ve broken me.

I thought I could tough it out for six months and look for a new post, but the micro aggression is off the scale after two months.

I am living on my nerves and every work day is a battle. I am dreading going into work every day and the weekends are just anxiety about another Monday coming around.

I really don’t know what I have done to be on the receiving end of whatever this is. I haven’t been there long enough for them to even know me let alone consider me to be an arsehole. I can’t imagine treating anyone joining a new team as I’ve been treated.

Sounds like they've all got no work to do to me and don't want anyone to find out. I am not civil service but wonder how is it possible that your manager is a gd 6 if you're a gd 7?

So sorry to hear you’re going through this. Unfortunately I think this is all too common in civil service (I experienced it more than once over my 15 yrs service) but also quite common to happen when you join an established team. You haven’t done anything - and I reckon you’d find they have seen off other new team leaders in the same way.

some of my current new to me team (private sector) did some of this - they liked the status quo so they decided to just ignore me. I watched quietly for about 3 months and then I stopped being quite so nice (20% less is enough I always say!) and put in some firm boundaries - when to escalate, what I want to see etc, set expectations. Most were grateful for the guidance and are thriving, I’m discovering lots of hidden talent, but a couple are still pushing against me. I’m just about to take them down performance management route now. They’ve had the same direction, input, support etc and they’re still hell bent on undermining me. I also had to take my manager on a bit of a journey so he could understand where I was coming from and get his support on the premise that we’ll never achieve our objectives as is.

But…. When I had such teams in the civil service the barrier was usually the leadership. You can’t sort out that kind of nonsense if you don’t have the support of your leadership. And that’s why I would move on, as soon as you can. Wish them peace and love and leave them to it.

Grade 6 is more senior than grade 7. The order of seniority for the grades mentioned is: SEO, G7, G6, DD, Director.

OP, why are you obligated to stay 6 months? Is that contractual or just the convention in your department? It’s possible they could block an EOI move, but they can’t block a move if it’s advertised externally and as a G7 you won’t have a 6-month notice period so what are they going to do?

G7 notice period is 3 months for external moves ie outside government but if you find another role within government you can move in 4-8 weeks.

I’m sorry it is so awful. You need to job hunt NOW.

It’s organisational that when promoted you must stay for 6 months (used to be 12 months) in the post you are promoted into.

I’m checking the internal advertisements weekly.

Its so grim but I can’t work out if they are oblivious to their behaviour or pretending not to realise (I suspect the later). Both I and the other G7 have independently told them we didn’t feel particularly welcome into the team, which apparently has been a surprise to them all. Each week it goes on I can’t see that it can be pulled back.

Latest issue is that they are “annoyed” not to be asked to attend an external meeting that’s been arranged for 5 of us that are new to the work are with one of our key stakeholders. The purpose of it is to be introduced to the organisation and to get to know their remit. It feels like whatever I do it’s not right. Also they don’t see the irony that they are annoyed not to be invited to a meeting which won’t actually provide them with anything but they continue to not invite me to meetings in specific work areas that I need to get up to speed on.

Have a meeting today with the DD, (other g7 and g6) to discuss as they’ve picked up there are issues and someone outside of the team has raised a concern about how I was spoken to at a meeting. Other than one HEO none of the wider team speak to me, not even responding when I ask “how is everyone?” at wider team meetings.

Not entirely clear what the DD can do, it’s humiliating. The whole thing is humiliating in all honesty, I can’t force people to work with me.

Thought of tomorrow being the start of a new week is making me feel sick this evening.

It sounds very toxic.

Can you at least ask the Dd to make sure you're included in the meetings they're having with the SEOs? That should give you some oversight.

I assume you've tried having 121's each week with the HEO and SEO to go through the work they're doing? Presumably you're responsible for their objectives. Could you look at those and have conversations about what they need to do to improve their communications internally?

Some people are just awful though and the CS is quite bad for people who are just stuck in their ways. Can you go down the performance management route?

Yes have 121’s with the two SEO’s, and weekly “team” meetings.

The objectives for the team were set up before I joined, and I’ve met with them twice to run through these and on both occasions had a lot of word salad about them being ridiculous (set by the g6) out of date and of no relevance. Tried working with them to set ones that are relevant but just got nowhere. They just don’t accept I have a level of seniority or capacity to make decisions and will not accept any that I make. Everything is a (or feels like) a battle. I guess I could just pull rank and but I fear the outcome of that and it becoming even more hostile.

I suppose that’s actually the issue now, I am scared of it getting any worse. I already feel really isolated and rather pathetic.

They sound horrendous. Sorry you're having to go through this. Is there no other G7 in your department that you can have a moan to about them? The isolation is what kills you.

What about the person who raised concerns?

I left the CS for private sector a couple of years ago partly because of the increasingly awful atmosphere in my team so you have my sympathy. I also think G7s get the brunt of it, having to do the legwork and take responsibility but not getting the glory.

I made it to 6 months, but I’ve had to request a managed move. It’s probably career suicide but I can’t carry on.

There’s an ongoing HR review of the entire team, Deputy Director has made it clear they are fully aware of the issues.

It’s been exhausting and I don’t even know at this stage if moving to another post will resolve anything. I’m physically and mentally exhausted.

I wouldn’t worry too much about the managed move aspect. I once took someone on a managed move and she was great, just not a good fit with her previous team. She soon got promoted.

Thanks @LadyLapsang

Well done for sticking it out. I agree managed moves are not an issue. I would also be applying for any suitable vacancies.

Yes I’m applying for internal vaccines as they are advertised @Harassedevictee.

I made it to 6 months, but I’ve had to request a managed move. It’s probably career suicide but I can’t carry on.

Make sure you really prioritise your mental health as much as you can. I was in a similar (but much less intense) situation for the same amount of time and I simply crashed when it was over. It wasn’t worth it.

There’s an ongoing HR review of the entire team, Deputy Director has made it clear they are fully aware of the issues.

Maybe they should have pulled their fingers out of their arses. They sound like they’re on a relaxed timetable there.

Thanks @NoCommentingFromNowOn.

I do feel that I’m at breaking point now, so hoping a move is arranged quickly.

And still I wait…

HR review has been completed but we won’t be given copies of the report (which DD has said is awful) but will get heavily redacted versions.

”My” post has already been filled and the person who will take over from me has been given a start date. I have yet to be offered anything to move to by HR and apparently as I’m the grade I am I am difficult to find a post for.

Just had two weeks leave and I am dreading tomorrow morning.

OP, I recently left the CS because I could not be bothered with the total chaos around lack of clear roles and responsibilities and that people seemed to be able to just do as they please. Sorry you’re having a shitty time.

I worked in a few departments and some were terrible for this - what department are you at?

I find it odd that your DD hasn’t stepped in and spoken to the team but has commissioned a report!

@FortyDegreeDay a devolved administration.

Thank you. It’s draining I must admit. I feel absolutely rotten today as well so feeling so sorry for myself.

That makes sense - I worked in big policy departments as well as an ALB and I found the further way from the centre you got, the worse the chaos was! I absolutely hated the ALB, full of lifers - people in the same role, same team for years who wouldn’t share responsibilities and couldn’t accept change!

I hope you find a better role soon OP and remember - it’s not personal, it’s just a shitty culture in a rubbish team that is impossible to permeate if nobody else wants to change the culture. Chin up x