Demotion at work

[Mummybeen19]

Long time mumsnet lurker who is looking for a little bit of advice. A couple of days ago I received a call from work asking if I could go into the office to discuss a restructure (read expansion of the team) which has been talked about for a while and how it would impact my position. I received no formal invite to the meeting or information about what would be discussed. So yesterday I get to the meeting and HR and my line manager are both waiting, it transpires that the company restructure is effectively making my job redundant and being replaced with two roles which will cover my responsibilities but also require a technical skill which I currently don’t possess. I have been offered effectively a demotion (from a manager role to a senior role) which will effectively take away a lot/most of my responsibilities or the option of statutory redundancy. Now there are other roles which I could do (more of a sidestep in career progression) but I have been told I would need to apply for these along with external candidates. Is all of this legal? Obviously accepting the more junior role would impact my cv!
I’ve been at the company 8 years.

Hi I’m really sorry you’re going through this. I’ve been dealing with something similar recently and immediately called ACAS to check if my suspicions about unfair practice were correct. They offer free advice so I’d say do that today.

I also copied and pasted your issue into the ChatGPT website and it offers general advice on what your rights are and what the company should be doing to make this a fair process for example if your role is being made redundant they need to offer a fair consultation process and do all they can to find you an alternative equivalent position in the company. Without this they’re in wobbly ground for unfair process and dismissal.

@BaconButtiesAllRound sorry to hear you are having to deal with something similar. Thanks for the advice, I’m definitely going to give ACAS a call in bit, there seems to be so many different laws/employee rights around it, some seem very vague and open to interpretation though. I just felt really unprepared when I went into the meeting!

Hi, it sounds like the initial part of the process is fair, they are consulting with you about making your role redundant and making you aware of alternatives, that part is only unfair if they are forcing you to take a demotion rather than presenting it as an option.

Regarding finding you another role, they have an obligation to try to redeploy you, to give you priority over other candidates and to offer you something else if you could do it with reasonable training.( As always a few caveats around all that but the principle is they need to has tried very hard to find you something before making you redundant ) the process sounds fair, but their assertion that you be considered alongside external candidates sounds less so if they aren’t going to prioritise your application

Thanks @PilchardsonToast
i think it was just a little bit of a shock. I asked on the initial call if I could have some further clarity on what the discussion was about and was told ‘sorry I can’t, but don’t get stressed about it’ So to turn up to the office and see my line manager and Hr in the room was a bit of a shock.
The way the meeting flowed felt a little uneasy, my line manager outlined that two roles are being created both of which require the technical skill which I currently don’t have (crazy thing is I actually have a tech based degree) and as a result my role would no longer be needed, they then said they would like to offer me the demoted role and at the same time I would be upskilled on the skill needed for the roles they were creating (not with the foresight that I would get these roles in the future though). I actually had to ask what the other option was if I chose not to accept as apposed to this being layed on the table at which point I was told it was redundancy.
What makes it worse is when leaving was mentioned I was told if I didn’t stay and upskill within the less senior role I was very unlikely to get a job similar to the one I am currently in within another organisation.
I guess it all just feels very unfair even if it is all legally sound. Especially as they are offering promotions to some other team members as a result of the restructure and have in the past spent a lot of time upskilling staff from other departments to join the team and also it is only me being demoted!

Why can't they offer you one of the jobs & the training for the skill?

Talk to ACAS

@Ariela Im not sure if I’m honest, I think the idea is whoever takes the role will train up myself and my direct reports of whom if I accept the role I will be the same level as. (it’s a skill that would only take a few months to be fairly confident with)
im going to definitely give ACAS a call on Monday, not that I’m sure that there’s much they can do. Annoyingly I’m also 2 weeks outside the 18 month maternity protection period.

Is your pay the same? If it is, it could be looked at as a compliment. They are expanding your role really, so they obviously think it's going well and theres a need for it. IF and only if you're pay is the same, I would work with them on this

If your pay isn't the same, you could definitely talk to them about that. Tell them you've worked for them for 8 years, hi light any projects/tasks you did that made a difference or more money. Tell them what you would like to help them achieve more and feel that you were good at your role. You never know, if you express your feelings using positive and constructive words, they may even suggest a better role for you

It mightnt be personal at all

If your pay has gone down, do talk to them

@LimeQuoter the role offered is a step down, less senior, line managing responsibilities removed (so would be same level as the people I am currently line managing) and a plethora of other responsibilities removed. Same pay, which many would see as a bonus.

Their decision seems pretty final with little room for negotiations.

It's a good sign that the pay is the same because they could easily have reduced your pay if they wanted to, especially if they are making changes in the company. It means that they don't want to lose you. They may even have other plans for you down the road when everything is sorted.

Ya, I'd imagine the social aspect being a bit tricky alright. I'd imagine it being awkward working alongside people you used to manage. If you do like the job and working for the company. I would stay confident with other employees during this. I know it's awful to say but only express your disappointment to those who you know won't take advantage/treat you with less respect. If you are seen to be working alongside the company it could work out better. It could keep that space between senior role and employees for the future. I'm sorry that this has happened for you. It could be all for the best and a new role could come up/be offered in time. Hang in there

I used to work for one of the utilities and with technology moving in these restructures were common
redundancy was always an option
then you could apply for any job upwards /downwards or sideways redeployed people were selected 1st if they passed interview and had skills
if they couldn’t fill it with a redeployed person it would then go external
but you did have to apply and interview there was no free pass because your old job had gone

I would take the redundancy package and look for another job - personally, I couldn’t work in a team I once lined managed. People talk and put two and two together and all of a sudden you were shit at your job and you spat in Janice’s coffee and took Liam’s ham sandwich out the fridge so you were demoted.

@TY78910 this is what I’m worried about, a lot of me wants to just leave and save face. The ironic thing is i was asked recently to facilitate one of my direct reports to be upskilled by a member of staff in another department in the skill needed, I was told there wasn’t time for me to get this opportunity at the moment though.
Was also told in the consultation meeting if I didn’t accept the demotion and left I wouldn’t get a job at the same level I currently am.
Ughh my heads a mess at what to do

@Mummybeen19 Was also told in the consultation meeting if I didn’t accept the demotion and left I wouldn’t get a job at the same level I currently am.

do they mean in another company? They cannot possibly comment on that. You could go higher if you interviewed well. That comment is inappropriate

I have been both sides of this. On the receiving end, my view was that other employers are available and that I wouldn't accept a demotion as it would damage my career in the longer term. You have to judge your industry and the availability of jobs though. It is likely that your pay, while it would stay the same now, would gradually be eroded by not having a pay rise again until the others catch you up. This aspect was also unacceptable to me.

On the dishing out end, there are many options. The most common are that for whatever reason your face doesn't fit anymore, or more likely, it is an arbitrary decision made for financial reasons / some other reason that may / may not make sense to you. My experience is that it doesn't really matter how you try to fight it, the likelihood is that they have followed the legal process closely enough that it won't change anything for you sufficiently to make it worth pursuing.

In your position I would be taking the money but trying to negotiate that you have input into your leaving email statement. That way, you can leave with dignity.

How have things been going? Any struggles or difficulties? Was this a bolt out of the blue?

What’s going on in your industry? Could you get another job?

Personally, I wouldn’t take a demotion. I would also check all my facts to make sure everything they were doing was above board as much as anything to leverage a better pay out.

If you stay, I’m not sue this will improve although I’ve seen other people cling on and things have turned out okay.

This. I'd try to negotiate a job title that doesn't look like a demotion on the CV, accept the same money and less responsibility. Win win.

@TY78910 yes they meant if I were to move to another company that I would not be able to get a role at a similar level to the one I am currently in without staying taking the demotion and upskilling

@HappiestSleeping it’s hard not to take it personally but I totally get businesses have to make the decision that is best for the direction they want to head. I’m currently trying to weigh up what is best, I feel like I’d constantly have to be explaining the demotion in my cv to future employers if I stayed, however at the same time Im contracted slightly below a full time role (although usually end up replying to messages etc on my non working time) and any future roles I took I would obviously lose this! The idea of negotiating my leaving statement if I do go is a good idea though, thanks.

@DelphiniumDoreen Nope no issues or concerns have been raised about my performance etc, my 121s have always been positive and my particular area within the team I’m in I’ve built from the ground up, continually adjusting process etc when needed, probably why it stings that little bit more!
I’ve been having a look at roles and there is a fair few out there, so could probably find a new role fairly easily, there is a few different directions I could take if I were to leave.
like I said I was just so under prepared to be going into a redundancy consultation when I didn’t even know my role was under threat I didn’t even think to ask many questions other than what was the option if I didn’t accept the role. They didn’t have the figures to hand to for that to give to me, they had to work it out during the meeting!

@LizzyEm thats a wonderful idea, definitely something I will raise in my next meeting, they seem pretty set in what they are offering (take the role or leave) so I’m not sure how much they will take this into consideration, but it’s worth the ask.

They didn’t have the figures to hand to for that to give to me, they had to work it out during the meeting!

That's interesting. They're either woefully under prepared, or they think you will roll over and accept this. If it's the latter, you may surprise them by taking the money and going. Have there been any changes at senior level, or is there any possibility of being bought out / merging with another company?

Also, they can't possibly say with any certainty what a different company would or would not offer you. From your posts, it sounds like you could take a package from this company and upskill yourself relatively quickly anyway.

I think the fact that they said you wouldn’t get a job at the same level and didn’t have the numbers worked out is very telling. They’re expecting you to roll over.

How do they know? Have they fully researched? It sounds like they haven’t.

Decisions are made for the good of the business but you now have to think of yourself. Only do what is right for you now and nothing less. These situations can be defining so don’t assume that this won’t have a good outcome.

Hmm the structure of that meeting is questionable. What they should have said is "this is the restructure we're proposing and here is the business case for it. I'm this circumstance your role is at risk of redundancy but there is a suitable alternative for you (the "demoted role*).

I would ask for all job descriptions - your current one, the one that's replacing it, and the one they've suggested (the demotion) and a list of all current vacancies and their job descriptions.

Essentially, they would need to prove that it's an unreasonable ask for you to be trained up in this new role, and that all the current side step vacancies are not a suitable alternative (if you have an appropriate skill set that may be hard for them to do). Typically if your job, and those jobs are roughly 70/75% the same and the rest reasonably trainable they'd be hard to argue they aren't suitable but if that were the case then the demoted role could be an option but perhaps you could consult on the terms of it (job title from a career pov?). Not managing isn't always seen as a backwards step if you're in a more specialised role for instance.

Process wise you need to be given a pack that explains their proposal and all the info outlined above. You have the right to be accompanied at consultation where you can discuss everything before they confirm whether your role is even redundant, at the moment it should just be at risk. Hope this helps! X

I'd ask why isn't it possible for you to be trained in the tech element that will be required for the "new" roles and what is the redundancy package if your current role is redundant.

"yes they meant if I were to move to another company that I would not be able to get a role at a similar level to the one I am currently in without staying taking the demotion and upskilling"

I would follow up on that and ask them what upskilling are they talking about and finding out if that is true for that role. If it's false it's just a veiled threat and that would definitely be your cue to leave