Flexible working request, when you're a manager - any experience?

[sellotape12]

Hi career mums:
I'm trying to negotiate a job at offer stage. It's managing a small team of 2, in a company of 40 total. The founders are hands-on. They said no to my request at offer stage to work a 9 day fortnight. So I'm wondering if I can put in a Flexible Working Request later, once I'm in. If you did this, what was the success like? Any tips?
I want to ensure I can do pick-up and drop off. I was hoping to get some Fridays off as my child is nursery-age and young, but they said no it's full time.
And managers - has the FWR worked out okay for you in terms of performance and capability?

If they won’t agree to it now, when they should be trying to entice you to work for them, why would they when you’re already on board?

Agree with @FuckoffeeBeforeCoffee if they won’t agree any flexibility when they are hiring you, they are unlikely to accept it at a later stage.

My own experience was actually that I also asked for reduced hours when I applied, was told no, took the job anyway and later applied and got it. I actually think you're in a stronger position as an employee they know they can trust and who has proven themselves than as an unknown quantity. I think for most people the best chance they have for flexible working is in the job they're already in (which is one reason why I think it's often a mistake to not go back after mat leave unless you're not going to work for years and years).

If their reason for saying no was because its a full time post why do you think they'd agree to it a few months down the line.

Of course you can, but if they’re refusing to negotiate at offer stage, it’s not very likely that they’ll accept it later down the line either- so if this was an important thing to you then I would suggest this role isn’t the right one for you.

It also won’t necessarily reflect that well on you in the company if you accept the job on the basis of it being full time and then just a few months later try to renegotiate the terms.

As a manager, if I’m hiring a full time role then that’s normally for a good reason, because I can’t do the work on a part time basis. I’d be happy to consider flexibility around school pick up and drop off but I wouldn’t budge on the working days if I needed someone 5 days a week.

Incidentally on this thread from the other day absolutely loads of posters were telling OP to 'get her feet under the table' rather than asking for the flexibility from the off: https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5326854-to-feel-if-they-say-no-that-i-may-as-well-bloody-well-give-up-on-working-and-that-women-are-still-having-to-make-the-compromise?

Thanks, I'll read it!
OK, so let's talk around flexibility around pick up then instead? @elessar what do you feel is reasonable flex? I've checked Google maps and I'd need to leave the office sharp at 4:35 to get to the nursery for 5:20pm pick-up. I can work a bit on the train. Surely that's acceptable when you're in a senior role? (it'll be split with my husband). Or I'd be happy with one extra day WFH.

And @rookiemere and @FuckoffeeBeforeCoffee because a flexible working request is a statutory right, and can only be refused on good grounds (legit business reasons), see below:
Employers can refuse an application for any of the following reasons:

• extra costs that will damage the business
• the work cannot be reorganised among other staff
• people cannot be recruited to do the work
• flexible working will affect quality
• flexible working will affect performance
• the business will not be able to meet customer demand
• there’s a lack of work to do during the proposed working times
• the business is planning changes to the workforce

Hence I'm wondering if I can prove myself first, so that I can show that reduced hours won't affect quality or performance.

Assuming the standard hours are 9-5.30, if it were me I’d probably accept this, and I’d expect that you’d make the time up either by starting an hour early to do 8-4.30, shortening your lunch break to do 8.30-4.30 or starting at 9 but then doing an hour’s work once you’d got home. Depends of course on the role and how often there are fixed meetings at times that would clash with this, but I have plenty of people on my team doing variations of this sort of thing. I’m happy to accept people are grown ups and give a reasonable amount of flex provided people demonstrate they work hard and don’t take the piss.

@sellotape12you are assuming the business makes 100% rational decisions.Most don’t. I joined a charity organisation assuming they would be a lot more open to flexible working requests because of the nature of the organisation and frankly the low salaries. They are not because they agreed too many during lockdown and now have decided to say no to everyone unless you’re absolutely on your knees because of your family situation.
However a new senior person managed to negotiate a compressed pattern on hiring.

It varies from organisation but in reality it’s very easy to “demonstrate “ detrimental impact to the business based on that list, if thats what you want to do.

I always get my working pattern agreed before I start a new role, I don’t want to roll the dice on something that’s a non negotiable for me. I’ve been quite happy to walk away if it’s not possible.

My working pattern of choice is a slightly compressed 4.5 day week.

Some employers will be more flexible after time/when they know you but in my experience most won’t. It tends to be a culture of the organisation rather than the legal requirements that determine flexible working - the “business needs” reason is very easy to use and your right is to request not receive FW.

Hi OP, you’ve not said why they turned your request down, so it’s hard to know whether there is room for them to be more flexible when they know you better. What reason did they give?

I think you have to accept the obvious it’s a no

flexible work has to suit the employer not just the employee

Honestly in reality employers can refuse flexible hours for any made up reason . A really good guide would be if other members of staff have flexibility. This would at least give you a guide as to their general attitude to it.

@EATmum they said only one other person in the team and too much going though right now, and that senior presence was expected. So I’m ok and understand No to four days. I thought one day off every other week would be manageable. There are a few other that do four days, yes @lizzyBennet08 - maybe not quite as senior as me but almost.