Career mums, help! Can I negotiate for family life with new job?

[sellotape12]

Big career/professional mums. I’m in the late stages for an external interview and it’s quite a step up. I’m feeling nervous but good-nervous. The only thing that concerns me is that I have a three year-old and we were maybe thinking about starting for number two this year. So far the company hasn’t mentioned anything about their family leave policy, anything about flexible arrangements etc cetera. It’s quite a male dominated sector.

How should I approach a negotiation/ expectation setting if an offer comes through? I want assurance that they are okay about things like pick-up, child illness etc. What kind of things would you say to approach the “I am a mum!” reality without putting them off? I currently work four days and they’ve already said they would be hoping for five.

TLDR Do you think I can make a big, managerial job work for me or should I walk away from the opportunity because I have such young/needy age child(ren)? Separate points – do you think it’s just unethical to take the job where I would be the department manager and then potentially get pregnant within the year?

All perspectives form people who’ve been in similar situations are welcome.

I have worked in banking and finance since 1979 bloody hell it's time I retired and in all that time, I have NEVER known a man arrive late or leave work early on a regular basis to do the school/nursery run. Golf yes, nipping out early for a quick drink and a chat with an equally senior colleague yes.
Collecting the kids? No.

On a rare occasion, they might have dropped everything for an emergency like a dc taken to hospital, but apart from that - nope. Senior men generally put their job before their family, and that's because they have a partner at home who does all that menial childcare stuff. Or, of course, pay a nanny to do it.

If you want to compete on a level playing field, be treated equally and have a career at a senior level, then you have to accept that you will need to play the game with the same rules.

@theboffinsarecoming I agree more women do this than men, but things are definitely changing. Look at the level of parental leave men are starting to take compared to just 10 years ago. All the new dads I've worked with in recent years have taken months not weeks off. This then leads to a bigger parenting role for them as the child grows - they're not completely fucking useless because 2 weeks' paternity leave didn't prepare them for family life anymore.

What does it say in the title of the thread, eh? 'Career mums'.

When did you ever hear of any man being referred to as a 'Career dad'?

I run a big department and have a very good childminder. I do at least 1 drop off every week and tend to do to Friday pick ups. I don't find it as stressful as have 50/50 custody with my ex. I wouldn't mention anything about pick ups etc and just see how it goes. Also you will need to check their maternity pay policy

I work in a very senior exec role, plc board level, and also have a 3 year old.

Every case and every employer will be different. I had worked over 20 years for my employer before I had a child. By that time I was of course trusted implicitly to get everything done so nobody really cared what hours I worked. I also negotiated a WFH full time contract. Without that I don’t know how I’d cope with pick ups and drop offs.

My advice is to land the job and then quickly show them that you’re a high end, reliable performer. Once they appreciate that then any required flexibility request is unlikely to be an issue. I’d also advise barely mentioning it once it’s in place. Most people won’t even notice if you plan your diary to accommodate your needs so why advertise it unnecessarily.

Thanks so much @Hayley1256 and @Silentdream - really great and helpful advice. I appreciate it. (Going to ignore the deliberately provocative distraction commenter from earlier.)
I don’t think my role sounds half as big as yours, Silentdream but just wanted to get a picture of the reality of how you do it. Thankfully, my husband and I do have an egalitarian relationship, so we’ll be able to share drop off and pick up.

I mentioned in an earlier post but I find willingness to give above and beyond grants you greater flexibility. I rarely say no to an opportunity (including international travel) but I do make proposals for how to make it work for me (eg I won't be away for more than four nights). My reality is also that I'm online early and often late to ensure what's needed is done which isn't for everyone. The reality is that I'm good at what I do and work extremely hard so whilst I "compete" with men who have wives at home picking up the slack, I'm often wanted to be involved because I get sh*t done and to a very high standard.

To make it work... I have a cleaner, my husband pulls his weight, I'm naturally very organised and I sacrifice sleep more than I'd like to make sure my children have time with me. It's not perfect. I'm not perfect. I still get incredible feelings of guilt which annoys me because I've never met a man who feels the same but I haven't figured out how to overcome that one. I'm trying to embrace it but it's a work in progress.

Good luck OP!

Well you’re the big manager, surely you role will be setting the culture?

what’s the job? Are you required to be there at 9am to open up, or for the markets to open in Hong Kong or whatever? Or is more the role where as long as you’re there for 8 hours between 7am and 7pm?

if the hours are dictated by the role then you may struggle. You can’t just piss off for the school run if there’s a critical job to be done.

if it’s more input than being there at certain times then you have something to work with. Set the example. Make it clear to your team that as long as they clock in for x hours the actual hours don’t matter. If they want to come in early and leave early, I’d take a couple of hours for something, then as long as they perform you are flexible. Then they same applies to you and no one complains.

bear in mind being “a mum” does not make you special. If it fits around work great, if not you’ll need to compromise.

my office we all flex for others. So if Pete wants to go to his kid’s nativity, someone will cover. If jemima wants to leave early to watch her beloved united play, or pick up her granny from Tesco, we’ll cover. Lot of give and take and everyone has a better work/life balance, not just parents.

What is your DP doing to support your step up into this role? Is he asking for concessions because he is a Dad? While I think there is a place for work flexibility for family needs, both parents need to be stepping up to the plate, and not expecting the woman to take on the big role while also being the primary caregiver. They are called your partner for a reason.

You also need to look at what you can put in place at home to support you taking on a bigger role, with presumably a higher salary. Use some of that increase to pay for a cleaner, some kind of meal prep service or at least grocery delivery and more easy to prepare foods. Also consider the option of a part time Nanny to pick DC up from school, etc.

I probably wouldn’t be asking about family friendly or maternity leave policies in the interview process. Google to see if you can find their maternity leave policy. Otherwise once HR give you an offer, ask then.

A lot of this is job and sector dependent. A PP said they'd never used annual leave to cover child illness, but it would be expected in my senior role. Although child dependent - toddler with D&V absolutely you'd take annual leave, 10yo asleep in bed with a temperature you'd WFH.

The people who work for me are 9-5, and running a public-facing service, so I need to be available and that means most high level meetings are between those hours. Yes, I can flex so I do one school drop off a week and use after school club (I'd struggle to get out of work to pick up at school time) but flex works both ways and I wouldn't use annual leave to cover an assembly or parents' evening as I tend to work in the evenings too.

I know plenty of men who do the school run and are very open about it, yes even senior ones. I think it’s wonderful as it’s normalising the fact that parents have to do these things and it’s not just women. I also applaud every time I hear of a father taking paternity leave. They will (should) be a more hands on parent because they’ve had to figure it out while the mother is at work.

Why on earth would it be ok for a man to not be available to work because he is golfing or drinking but not be ok because he is doing the school run or watching his child compete in school sports? It sounds like some of your views are still in 1979.

I think this post is quite confused.

There's no 'clocking in for x hours between 7am and 7pm' in some roles. One day you might have to work 14 hours to meet a deadline, other days you have nothing to do so you have a chilled day at home, keeping an eye on emails. It's not clear this is what OP's job is like, but it is true of many very senior jobs. It's not about 'pissing off' to do the school run during critical times, it's about organising your schedule so you can do drop offs or whatever without it affecting too much. As mentioned upthread, a simple blocking out of the calendar usually does the trick. In most organisations, junior people work around senior people's availability, not the other way round. If the CFO can't do 8:30am because she's dropping off her child to childcare, then the rest of the team works around that.

@theboffinsarecoming 1979 called they want your views back!!

I work in a senior role in a similar industry, I lead and trust my team…and shock horror pick my kids up as does my husband as we both made them!

honestly we take one step forward and twenty steps back!!

I know plenty of men who do the school run and are very open about it, yes even senior ones. I think it’s wonderful as it’s normalising the fact that parents have to do these things and it’s not just women. I also applaud every time I hear of a father taking paternity leave. They will (should) be a more hands on parent because they’ve had to figure it out while the mother is at work.

Why on earth would it be ok for a man to not be available to work because he is golfing or drinking but not be ok because he is doing the school run or watching his child compete in school sports? It sounds like some of your views are still in 1979.

Indeed @Beebsta , and never have I heard of any man going off to play golf on work time in my 12 years in a male-dominated field. Seems like outdated views to me.
Also, it's incredibly naive of PP to think that senior women don't meet equally senior colleagues/clients for drinks as part of their work - I was taken out for champagne very recently by a female partner who I will be working with, as an introductory, getting to know each other meeting. Childcare taken care of in the background that evening, it didn't even crop up in conversation.

what are the maternity pay benefits? Wouldn’t you need to be in role for 2 years to qualify for anything other than SMP?

I would start networking new company, do you know anyone there? Ask about parents/family culture etc?

That's job dependent. Mine you'd have to be in the role nine months to be eligible for the enhanced package. I've never worked anywhere that expected two years first, although I have worked some places that only paid SMP.

That’s my point.

some roles will need you to be in for 8am (as an example) because someone needs to prepare the management report for 9am, or be in to do x or y. Our management meeting is at 8, so all managers need to be in by then to organise the days work. It is not moveable, and anyone not able to attend has to arrange cover, that applies to everyone, however senior.

other departments don’t have that meeting, so their managers can work 7-3, or 10-6, as the choose. As they don’t NEED to be in at any particular time. Some roles do allow “clocking in between 7 am and 7pm” although there may be some occasions where more hours are needed, but most roles have a minimum weekly hours that have to be worked.

whether o/p gets the flexibility to be doing the school run or go to nativities depends on what her job is. If she’s in the dept which has an 8am managers meeting then no, she won’t be able to do the daily drop off.

presumably o/p has the job description and has some idea of how flexible it might be. None of us have a clue.

I disagree. Lots of single parents have great jobs, we don't need to wait for men to help us out, we just have to be extremely organised and motivated. Our me time admittedly is actually not a thing, putting kids first is but you make your own choices. It can be done, so having a partner too must be a plus (maybe).