References - This is a problem for me, what can I do?

[OnTheScrapHeapOver50]

I left a long-term job about 5 years ago during covid times mainly due to health and anxiety issues and have been out of work ever since. I don't qualify for any benefits but I need to get a job as my savings are rapidly dwindling. I am being put off applying for jobs as they all seem to want 2 references. Firstly I don't really want my last employer contacted, mainly for 'pride' reasons - I didn't keep in touch with anyone there after I left, basically I hated the place and partly blame previous employer for my anxiety issues and I don't want to be relying on any of them for me getting a future job. Does that sound stupid? What if I did volunteer work at a couple of places, would that be sufficient to gain 2 references or would a future employer always want a reference from my last paid employment? Do volunteer organisations ask for references too? Am I overthinking this? Any insights welcome.

You really need to drop the pride and accept that you need a job more than you need to worry about the ex employer you left.

You're not reliant on them, you're reliant on needing to eat. A reference from them is just a necessary evil. You're overthinking it.

Most employers want a last employer reference.

If it was 5 years ago that you worked there I'd be surprised if any of your old colleagues/managers were still there anyway!

After five years the reference will only be ‘yes X worked here between x-y dates’ - you’re over thinking it.

volunteering is a good way to get work references.
Also a lot of jobs would be ok with one work reference and a character reference.

It might be worth seeing if there are any local job fairs, because then you could speak to employers and get a better feel for their requirements

It will just be a factual reference

You are over thinking this

Actually, stop procrastinating and apply for jobs

Probably this^

That said, you left a job without a job to go to and have been out of work for 5 years, but never claimed benefits. Without more (including that last employer reference) I would be looking very closely at you application! Some volunteer organisations do take up references. But even a reference from one of those isn't going to stop me looking very closely at you. A few weeks or months of volunteering doesn't cover up what appears to be an inexplicable gap, and a lot of employers are going to be slightly nervous about that gap.

You need a basic reference from your last employer (or education if first job) then a volunteer position is perfect for a second reference

But remember the volunteer position will need references too, we require two, one can be personal but the other needs to be an employer, education or another charity

I honestly don’t believe a future employer takes the time to contact potential candidates previous references unless there is some real doubt about them. In this day and age, you have hundreds applying for one vacancy.
i wouldn’t worry about it. None of the companies I worked for were ever contacted by a potential employer for a reference.
Plus, companies can no longer give an opinion on a former employee. All they can say is yes that person worked here. They worked for x number of years and worked in x role. They cannot give a negative opinion.

What about doing some work through an agency?

I am in a situation where I don’t think I would get a good reference from my last employer - and it’s all very well people saying “they will only provide dates”, but actually they can respond however they want if they receive a form that asks questions such as “would you employ this person again?”, and part of it is also a pride thing for me!

I felt quite comfortable explaining the situation quite truthfully to the agency in a way I wouldn’t have to a prospective employer, and I provided two other very good employment references instead. However, they would have taken just one employment reference and one character reference if needed. Do you have any employment references at all that you can use?

I ended up being offered a role that fits well that lasts for five months initially and am then likely to be offered a permanent contract with that employer if I want it (which I have found is usually the case with agency work, if you are reliable and half-decent in what you do).

In the meantime though; I am working again and can get away from the “reference from last employer” regarding the employer I don’t want contacted 😬 as the agency can just confirm dates worked if I do choose to move away from them.

I am incredulous that nobody has ever taken up a reference for you. Not ever? I do not know of any employer that doesn't take up references - and it isn't hundreds because we do it as part of a conditional offer. So only the person we want has references taken up.

Plus, companies can no longer give an opinion on a former employee. All they can say is yes that person worked here. They worked for x number of years and worked in x role. They cannot give a negative opinion.

This is complete rubbish. Employers can give detailed factual references if they wish, and if it is a bad reference it is a bad reference - it only has to be true. Some people accept basic references, others don't (we never did) and some roles require detailed references by law.

I honestly don’t believe a future employer takes the time to contact potential candidates previous references unless there is some real doubt about them. In this day and age, you have hundreds applying for one vacancy.

References are normally taken up after a conditional offer has been made and accepted, so they won't be getting hundreds for one position.

I can guarantee you that local government will take up references. I'm in the private sector and we always get references once a conditional offer has been accepted.

What sort of organisation did you work for? If it is one with an HR department, your old manager probably won't even know that they have been contacted. Someone in HR will get the request, check the files, confirm the dates and that could well be that.

The industry I work in is a small world so most companies I’ve worked for know each other and someone somewhere will already know the person. Plus, nearly all of my references could not be checked because either the company no longer exists or the people I worked for are either retired or moved on.

Thank you. I've checked on LinkedIn and unfortunately they are 😂

I'm pretty sure that no one has taken up a reference for me for the past 25 years, maybe before that but even then I wouldnt be surprised if they didn't

We don't all work for public bodies or large businesses with lots of boxes to be ticked

Why do people post inaccurate information on these sort of threads?

Of course you can give a negative reference - as long as it's true. Some people incorrectly interpret the risk of defamation as not being "allowed" to give a bad reference. But the defence for defamation is truth. So even if you did give a bad reference, the applicant found out, and then sued you for defamation (all not very likely) you would be fine if you could prove it was true.

As for not taking up references; that's not true either. Lots of sectors still always require two references for a role.

The problems arise when someone is still in employment, but very bad at their job. A manager isn't likely to write a bad reference as they know then that they'll be stuck with them longer as the job offer might be rescinded. So they'll write a polite (if rarely glowing) reference to get rid of them. From a hiring manager's point of view it can therefore be hard to know how much value to put on references; as most aren't really glowing or really awful - most are in the middle. Factual, lacking in detail, and useful mainly for double checking employment dates, any disciplinaries, and so on.

In your shoes OP, your gap in employment is going to be raising massive red flags. If I had interviewed you for a job I'd be interrogating that gap a bit further and would certainly be asking to see at least two references.

You don't have to work for a public body or large business to have references taken up. Some employers have a strange desire to try to find out if the person they are thinking of employing is truthful, honest and reliable - or even actually in work at all.

@OnTheScrapHeapOver50 The industry I work in is a small world so most companies I’ve worked for know each other and someone somewhere will already know the person.

So actually they do "take up references" - they do it informally, over the phone or behind closed doors. Whilst this obviously happens a lot (even when the formal written reference is taken up) it is the worst kind of reference - anyone can say anything for any reason they want, and you will never know what was said. That allows a lot of "hearsay" and prejudice / unevidenced opinion into the mix, which is very problemmatic.

What would you be looking so closely to find? I expect health and mental health issues do make employers slightly nervous but I don't know how to reframe this aspect as that is what happened to me. Any suggestions gratefully received.

Actually we're more looking at undisclosed prison time!

It really does depend on the types of employers (or sometimes the managers) but disclosed health issues would just get a referral to occupational health to confirm they were fit for work and if any adjustments were needed. They wouldn't be an issue otherwise - people get sick and people get well again. The only time this might be an issue would be where we needed to be certain they weren't covering something up, so, for example, there may be other checks we would look at, say a GP confirming sick notes, benefit claims confirmed or some other independant verifcation of what they were doing over the period. We usually work with people to get to a point where we know what they did over the gap.

It's a global consultancy firm. I know what has happened in the past is that HR receive the request and forward it on to the line manager to answer.

When I worked there, my manager turned to me one day and told me she had a reference request for a former colleague who I worked with a number of years ago - my manager then went on to tell me what the new job my former colleague was applying for! - to me this was a total breach of confidentiality and it's this kind of thing that makes me wish I didn't have to ask my former employer for a reference.

Thank you for your response and for being so open and detailed, it is much appreciated.

Thank you all so much for taking the time to reply, all your comments have been very helpful.

When I applied for a new second job they only contacted HR to verify that I worked there from the date I put down. They didn't contact my manager at all even though I gave them his details.