Advice wanted on security moment / fixed term contract question please

[Bellavida99]

Sorry title was meant to read Secondment and can’t edit it!
I have worked for my employer for nearly 8 years. 5 years in a permanent role and the last nearly 3 years I’ve been on a secondment. My original job won’t hold my post open for more than 3 years and my secondment won’t offer me a permanent role but has offered me a 5 year FTC. I’m on quite a bit more money now so don’t want to go back to my substantive post. There is a chance of redundancies in the next couple of years. Would I be entitled to a payout on a fixed term contract? My gut feeling is I shouldn’t give up a permanent role for a contract but I read that if I’ve been there over 4 years on contracts I’m counted as permanent in the law. Am I missing out at all by giving up a permanent role and accepting the 5 year contract? I’m not really worried about in 5 years time as I will then be over 55 and can take 2 pensions and lump sums so can manage while I have a rethink or go part time then anyway. Thank you

I'd seek some advice from ACAS or citizens advice or somewhere on this. Your length of service should count from your first role, regardless of alleged FTC and you shouldn't sign that away (doubt it would be enforceable) in signing a new contract.
Not sure how they can move you to an FTC or fail to keep substantive role open. I'm no expert so really sounds like solid advice would be wise.

Thank you for your advice I’ll give ACAS a call this week. It would be great if you are correct and they can’t take away my permanent role.

I can easily answer this. These days, especially if you have more than two years service, there is little real difference between "permanant contracts" (there are no such things in law anyway!) and fixed term contracts. For redundancy purposes it is continuous service that counts, and nothing else. So yes, if you have a fixed term contract you are entitled to redundancy and that is also true at the end of the fixed term contract if it is terminated - you are entitled to everything anyone on a "permanant contract" would be entitled to.

The 4 year things is rather outdated now and has no real relevance to anything. This is a hangover from the old days (i.e. when I started working!) when people on fixed term contracts did not have the same rights to unfair dismissal and redundancy as others.

If you wish to remain in the higher paid position, which makes perfect sense - there is nothing to stop your substantive post from being made redundant, however "permanant" it is) - the you can do so with no worries. Just be conscious that at the end of the contract they MUST either continue your employment, find you a suitable alternative or make you redundant. To do otherwise would be an unfair dismissal. I think most employers are aware of these matters now, but many employees don't seem to be.

PS - I should add... it is incorrect that they cannot take your substantive role away. You currently have the right to return to it but if you do not then they can "take it away". You have been given a choice, but they are not then bound to keep all your options open when you make one!

Ensure your continuous service date (when you started with company) is on the contract. They can't just give you notice to end your e.ployment, though they could make your ftc role redundant.

Thanks so much for your clear answer. I’m so relieved. So Just to clarify, I don’t need to worry if they take away my substantive post as they need to give me redundancy or a suitable alternative in the same way as they would if I was facing redundancy from a permanent post? If so that’s better than I hoped for as I was happy to slip away in 5 years time. Many thanks

Thank you that’s all as stated on my Oracle system so no problem there

Sorry - had to read that three times to make sure you had understood - the sentence structure flummoxed me for a minute and I wanted to be sure you understood. Yes! A "substantive post" is another thing, like permanant contract, that doesn't exist in law. So to be clear, if you choose to not return to your original (lower paid) position, you stay in the current (seconded) position, but that becomes your substantive post. "Substantive" just means the "real" role that you have and often has more to do with resource allocation and structure charts than people. When you were seconded, that role is "protected" - the resource to pay for it stays in place whether or not anyone actually occupies the post, so it remains on the organisational structure. Once you relinquish it that post can be continued or deleted or reallocated. The (seconded) role becomes your substantive post.

As they are giving you a fixed term contract for five years, all things being equal (you don't steal the pension fund or the funding for the post is withdrawn) you have five years employment with a known termination date. So the only difference is that you know when the post technically comes to an end, whereas in a "permanant post" you only discover when it will end when they tell you it will (if that makes sense?). At (or actually before) the end date you should have a discussion with the employer to clarify what will happen on the "end date". Because of your continuous service you will have exactly the same rights as any other employee who has worked there for two years. If they choose to continue the job or offer you a suitable alternative, then you will not be redundant and would resign, just as you would any other time, if you do not want to stay. If the post terminates and there is no alternative, you will be made redundant. The only issue then becomes (and this is true of any redundancy) if they offer a suitable alternative and you don't agree it is. But that is for five years time from now when you will be a member of a trade union and not depending on MN for employment advice, won't it???