On call and 11 hours working directive

[Bringitallbacktome]

Hopefully the collective Mumsnet mind can point me towards some legislation or something to answer this.

Flexi time worker working 9-5 during day, required to be on-call 8pm to 7am next day, 5 consecutive days a week.

worker called out at 12am and works till 7am in the morning.

Working time directive says 11 hours between shifts so couldn't start usual 9-5 shift till 6pm which means worker would have to work 6pm till 2am.

HR are saying worker would have to do the full 8 hours of their shift or they would have to take the time off as AL (owe the hours back).

Questions.

Number one) can HR state you have to work the 8 hours of your normal shift length or owe them the hours ? If you were called out each night and didn't work full shift length next day you could owe loads of hours.

Other places I've worked generally accept that if you are called out like that then they take the hit of you not being in without you working your shift hours. If on call end time was say 2am the employer would let you do 1-5pm (again just take the hit on the 9-1 hours without penalties)

Number two) If HR can make you still work back your hours what would happen if you were on a 6pm-2am shift due to having to work back the hours of the aforementioned hours, what would happen if you were then 'caller out' at midnight? Would you still have to then make up the 12-2am shift hours at another time or should that be called as working on on call and therefore not be made to work at another time.

No driving other than to and from places of work in private vehicle

Complicated I know .

Worker needs to speak to union rep urgently.
If not in a union, join one urgently.
Find the contract they signed at beginning of employment and go through it carefully with union rep.
Look to see if legal advice is included in home insurance policy.
Consider speaking to ACAS.

Too complex to fully understand.

I understand the questions. There just aren't any easy answers. Except one. The Working Time regulations do not say that there must be a break of 11 hours between shifts. They say that there should normally be 11 hours between shifts, but there are exceptions and rules around compensatory rest if this is not always possible.

Unfortunately beyond that the law is actually silent on the circumstances of on call, and what exists is sparse and all case law. So it depends on exactly what is happening here, because - and I am being cautious because the whole area is fraught with complexity - it isn't even clear what of those working hours is actually working time. In some cases it might be the whole of the on call hours (in which case the 11 hours rest is never going to happen), in others only the time that you actually spend working (and don't even start with whether travel time is included in that or not).

So it is far more complicated than even you think - it would need deatiled information about the entire employment contract and circumstances to answer your question. That means either your union or a lawyer.

Which brings me to the point that you probably don't have two years service yet, unless you are remarkably lax at remembering to query working practices in your workplace before now. So you are relatively new? In which case the best advice you will ever get is to find another job because the minute you push back and start quoting the law will be the minute before you get dismissed for something.

First they are the Working Time Regulations 1998. A directive is the EU instruction to legislate so therefore has the full effect of U.K. law.
Previous poster correct that normally should have 11 hours but if called out then there are compensatory arrangements….basically the break needs to be taken later or what works. So you don’t need to wait until night to commence the shift.

There is no entitlement to write off the follow on shift but some employers do

oh and on-call is not counted as working time but once called out and working, then it is. Hope that helps

oh and on-call is not counted as working time but once called out and working, then it is. Hope that helps

That is not the case. Like I said - it's damned complicated. Put very simply (and bear in mind what I said about this all being case law and therefore often situtaion specific) if the on-call hours (setting aside any actually worked) are such that you cannot live your life normally, for example my having an alcoholic drink or taking part in social activities / going out and about, then ALL the on call hours are probably working hours. If you literally only "disturb" your normal life for a specific call on time, then the time working is probably the only working hours that count. If you are on call and have to be at a specified location within a certain short period of time, then again that probably means all your time on call is working time. If it is likley that you might get multiple call outs each "shift" then again it is probable that all the hours on call are working time. It is incredibly complicated, only by the fact that there are no clear rules in place. Without looking at the details it is impossible to say whether all or some of the call out hours are working time, and that then has a knock on effect on rest breaks and compensatory time.

Health & Safety at Work Act?

There is a sensible question to be asked about the employees fitness to be at work if they have not had enough rest as a result of having been called out - or even to make the journey to and from work.

Put that to HR in writing so they cannot get out of replying.

Just be aware of the fact that the reply might be your notice. It is better to check what the actual situation is before taking an action you can't take back. It might be a "sensible question" but on the details we have here it may not be the best one. As @CantHoldMeDown has pointed out, there are exceptions; and we haven't even clarity about their employment status. Right now there is no evidence that the employees are not fit to be at work.

Not saying it's fair or reasonable, but the law doesn't care about those things; and we lack clarity on the legalities.