Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Work

Chat with other users about all things related to working life on our Work forum.

Am I allowed to tell someone I line manage that I really don't think he's ever going to be good at the job? Ever?

24 replies

PeaGreene · 01/05/2008 21:30

Or will I get done for constructive dismissal?

See, I didn't employ him and he really should never have been given the job. We've done the whole setting objectives thing, carefully monitoring his work, targets, dates, etc. He does exactly what he's told, no more (occasionally less). You have to set it out for him every step of the way, first do this, then talk to x. Etc etc.

I just think for the job he's doing and the level he's on (and what he's paid FGS) he really needs to show some initiative. And take on projects and run with them himself. And with the best will in the world, he's never ever going to do that. He's just not interested in the kind of work we do and would be better suited in a very different job.

Can I tell him that? Or am I on seriously dodgy ground?

OP posts:
Chipstick · 01/05/2008 21:35

During 1:1s with him, have you spoken about career progression? Has he expressed any desire to move on?

If he doesn't want to progress, then the only option would be an action plan, failure of that resulting in dismissal.

Do you have a good HR dept?

PeaGreene · 01/05/2008 21:45

Rubbish HR department. Not really getting any support from them.

He's previously said that he doesn't think the job is for him, but since I became his line manager he's saying all the "right" things - that he wants to stay etc.

I find he drains all my energy with his lack of enthusiasm and because he needs telling what to do every step of the way, so I don't stay on top of him as much as I should.

OP posts:
pointydog · 01/05/2008 21:49

"good HR dept" = one that's good at getting rid of people

Quattrocento · 01/05/2008 21:51

Watching this thread with some degree of (personal) interest

fishie · 01/05/2008 21:53

my tiny experience is that hr are there to help you to carry out your decision, not to make it. so you go to them and say HOW do i sack him not CAN i sack him.

FairyMum · 01/05/2008 21:54

I have been in this situation. I did tell my person, but in a "friendly" way. Sort of tried to point him in another direction playing career advisor and making him see it was in his best interest. Agree HR normally useless in these situations.

pointydog · 01/05/2008 21:55

Hollow lol. Yes, hr tell people how to sack someone.

PeaGreene · 01/05/2008 21:56

Well an HR dept that's good at getting rid of people would be useful, but would also like one that supported its new managers and made sure new recruits had some level of skills / experience to do the job they're being paid for.

I see people on this website who would dearly love the money this bloke's being paid and he doesn't have a clue.

OP posts:
CarGirl · 01/05/2008 21:58

can you set him his objectives, explain he is not going to be micromanaged to do them, and let him sink?

VeniVidiVickiQV · 01/05/2008 21:59

You cant say that. You can point out another career path that he would be good at. Carefully.

If an employee is not performing as required in their basic terms of employment, you can deal with that. But slowly. You have been setting out tasks and objectives. If you want rid - you can do so as long as follow the appropriate discipline procedure at your company, make full use of regular appraisals etc.

Of course, you know what often happens to people in relatively well paid jobs who dont perform particularly well? They get promoted or moved sideways

CarGirl · 01/05/2008 21:59

You need flowerybeanbag to help you on the legal side of it.

rookiemater · 01/05/2008 22:02

Spookily I was almost going to post the same sort of thread this evening. i have a useless narcissist who does everything wrong but blames his computer and never ever admits he gets it wrong, which completely winds up the rest of the team.

Regular documented 121s, give him tasks which are at his level, escalate to an improvement plan as soon as you can and then if your work has a disciplinary procedure then go onto that . Its a right pain in the arse, and means you spend less time managing your decent people, but has to be done.

PeaGreene · 01/05/2008 22:02

I like "explain he's not going to be micromanaged" but he sits 3 feet away from me. How can I ignore him every time he asks a question?

OP posts:
rookiemater · 01/05/2008 22:03

Oh no idea, mine works remotely which produces its own issues, but couldn't stick seeing him on a daily basis, poor you.

bitofadramaqueen · 01/05/2008 22:04

If he's not up to the job, then the right thing to do would be to put him through a capability process. It sounds like you've being doing something like that anyway. You need to set out clear expectations about the level of performance expected (and that can include taking the initiative). Make sure its all documented and that he's been offered the right level of support/training. If he's not meeting the expected performance levels this need to be made clear to him. It's not unlawful to dismiss someone who isn't up to the job as long as you've followed a fair process.

CarGirl · 01/05/2008 22:07

I don't know, I guess reply with a "I'm afraid that with x months experience that is a question I should be asked by you?" then answer it and make a note that you had to answer a question that he shouldn't have to ask?

flowerybeanbag · 02/05/2008 09:39

How long's he been there peagreene?

PeaGreene · 02/05/2008 17:05

Over a year. I raised the issue with HR when he'd been there about 9 months and they said it was too close to a year to just get rid of him anyway...

It's just so tiring going through the setting of tasks and watching him fail. And his apathy drains me of my own energy. I just want to do my own job instead of manage him, and you can't give him any real responsibility cos he'll cock it up. Also, I don't really have much line management of myself going on at the moment as my boss is on long term sick. So I'm getting no support there either.

Moan, moan. Oh well, weekend and a bank holiday now.

OP posts:
fridayschild · 02/05/2008 18:32

Peagreene, can you turn the questions around when he asks them? We say to people that if they come to us with a problem they should be able to suggest a solution, even if they know it is wrong. Some of them get the plot and others don't. Or set a goal of evidence and testimony from more senior members of the team that he has taken matters as far as practicable before referring them back?

But I agree it is painful and timeconsuming. Ultimately you are stuck with the route recommended by rookiemater, which will get you through the HR disciplinary /dismissal route

nooka · 02/05/2008 18:43

Maybe you need to think of something he can "safely" cock up? Can you ask for support from another senior manager if yours is away? Maybe ask your manager's manager to recommend someone along a mentoring line. Managing people is just so difficult! Otherwise I would say the key thing is to document everything (a huge pain, but shoudl you ever get in a ticky situation - ETA etc, vital).

ruddynorah · 02/05/2008 18:52

you said he does exactly as he's told and no more. so is that saying he is doing his job? or does he have objectives around taking ownership/personal responsibility/identifying opportunites etc blah blah?

either way, if you aren't happy with him, what is your performance management policy? where i work it's an informal improvement note with a review date set. at that review if no improvement then there would be a formal improvement meeting which they could have someone present for ie union rep, they would then get a written warning, then final written, then dismissal.

flowerybeanbag · 02/05/2008 19:45

Peagreene I thought this was all sounding familiar, there was someone who posted with this situation in January, it was the 9 month stage and the person's own manager was on long term sick as well, wonder if that was you.

Don't need to answer, it doesn't actually make any difference obviously, and I won't say who the other person was, it was just all ringing bells!

You say you've done the whole objectives, monitoring thing, but if what he should be doing is showing initiative, taking on projects etc and that's what he's not done, were any of the objectives/monitoring actually about those things? I am assuming you can't move on to a disciplinary process because he managed to achieve the objectives set previously?

So it's a case of starting again. You do have to go through a whole palaver as everyone's said, but you can speed it up by setting the right objectives, being clear about what exactly is required and what he is not doing, which isn't necessarily what's on his job description. If it's the level and type of role where a bit more is required then it's fine to be monitoring that.

If the problem is he is showing no initiative and keeps needing to ask you what to do, that's what to monitor. You have his objectives already, just make it clear that he is expected to achieve them without asking what to do. I'd set a timescale with some 'normal' objectives, but the monitoring should be about how they are achieved, not whether they are (although obviously if they are not that's also something to act upon).

I'd set up a weekly meeting with him for performance management purposes, at which he tells you what he's done. During all of this, make a note every time he asks you something during the working day, so that you have a record of exactly how much help you have been giving him and how many times he is not able to demonstrate the initiative and independence he needs to show. Agree all this at the beginning and be very clear that if there is not a marked improvement in this area of his performance over a reasonable timescale (depends on his job and context, maybe a month, maybe 3, you'll be able to judge) you will then have to consider taking the disciplinary route. Review at the end of the timescale and if you feel improvement is not enough, start disciplinary proceedings

If you are not getting support from HR or your line manager, take the initiative yourself. Just tell them this is what you are proposing to do, have they got any objections or comments which you will be happy to listen to. If/when it gets into disciplinary territory they'll all have to be involved anyway, but at the moment all you need is a 'heads up' about what's coming.

Chances are it won't get to the stage where you have to sack him. I take it from what you've said that he's relatively senior? Very very rare to actually go all the way in that case. IME once someone fairly senior has gone through a couple of months of being 'performance managed', then a couple of months of disciplinary investigation and hearings, then appeals, then a bit more performance management, then another disciplinary resulting ina final warning, then another appeal, then again to be dismissed, etc etc, at some point along the line they get the message, and look for something else/resign before they can be sacked.

Nevertheless, all this is going to be hugely time-consuming for you. It's so important you keep on top of it though, keep notes of everything, make sure he has plenty of opportunity to tell you if there's anything else you should be aware of that's affecting his performance and make sure you have all those meetings. If you are piling on the pressure like this, he is more likely to get the message that maybe this isn't the place/job for him and start looking. It really mustn't be an easy ride for him at all.

PeaGreene · 06/05/2008 21:31

Flowery, I know what you're saying makes sense. I'm just seem to be finding it so difficult to do. Too many pressures from too many different directions. Sinking a bit and feeling completely overwhelmed. I think I'm just not doing very well.

Turns out there's a high chance he could be made redundant anyway, to be fair, his role is diminishing considerably (probably why he's struggling to show a lot of initiative!)

OP posts:
flowerybeanbag · 06/05/2008 22:09

PG it is really hard to do. Managing someone who's not performing is hard work, time-consuming, overwhelming, often emotionally draining and exhausting. Most people find it difficult and need lots and lots of support however experienced they are.

The problem is you aren't getting the support you need for various reasons.

I think my advice would be to make an appointment to go and see someone from HR, someone senior, skip the rubbish (I'm allowed to say that ). What you need for this person is an exit strategy. Firmly say that to the HR person and ask for their input in developing a suitable plan. A discussion about redundancy can obviously be part of that. If there might be a reasonable case for redundancy, that could be a good way to go - he doesn't get redundancy pay yet either so not expensive, as long as it can be justified.

You need more support and I think you need to be very assertive to make sure you get it. Sometimes you do need to make lot of fuss/shout louder to get what you need.

I do think you need a proper meeting (for this specific purpose) with the appropriate senior HR person where you insist on leaving the meeting with an actual plan and knowing what your action points are and what his/hers are and a timescale.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page