Any TRUE family friendly law firms out there??

[maggiethecat]

Work with a firm close to home which is convenient but am not challenged by the quality of work and money is rubbish. Am considering a move and West End or City would probably be a 45 min commute but would do it to address above issues.

But don't want to go to a firm that doesnt address work/family issues. Are there any firms (in particular those practising commercial property) that pay more than lip service?

Have you tried Manches? I am retraining as a lawyer at the moment. I did a vacation placement at Manches. One of their selling points is that they "work an 8 hour day" (not just mums but everyone) and this did seem to be the case. No idea what it is like if you do actually work there but I spoke to a woman at one of their drinks parties who had accepted a training contract with them (although she hadn't started it at that point), she had two kids and they were willing for her to do term time working or 4 days a week. I decided to accept a TC with a local firm as I live outside London but Manches seemed like a really nice firm (I assume they do commercial property, haven't checked this.)

don't work at Manches!!!!

sorry, but it isn't family friendly ime, and a very strange place to work.

I would suggest you speak to a recruitment consultant - they may have more info on good firms, although they also have their own agendas...

(fwiw I went inhouse - much more family friendly ime, and others I know do non-fee earning work)

Have namechanged for this, but I work for Michelmores, who are based in the westcountry and have a London office. I am a single parent and have found them to be great, and truly family friendly, for everyone from the fee earners right down to the office juniors. I have had to alter my work hours at very short notice to accomodate my changing childcare, as well as being approved to work from home, and it has never been a problem. Its a really great firm to work for, and we do have a good com prop department.

I think you will find it tough to get a commercial property job at the moment, family friendly or otherwise. I am a commerical property partner in a national firm. We are not recruiting at the moment and our favourite recruiters say no-one else is either.

Linklaters have a team of people who do the management documents, who all seem to be part time and female. They also all seem to be incredibly stressed out though. so I don't think I'd recommend them. I expect you can rule out the magic circle on your own though!

I can recommend a recruiter though, cat me if you're interested. She's only ever sent us CVs for people we want to interview, so I think she knows her clients quite well. You might not get many interviews from her but none of them would be a waste of time.

We have interviewed a few people from Manches. It sounds like an odd place, not as good as it used to be in the Old Days.

Appreciate your input. This is the embryonic phase for me, perhaps the hardest in the job changing process. But I think that mentally I'm getting to the position of weaning myself off the firm and being less anxious about working further from home.

F'child I hear what you say and I think that some firms will ignore emp'ee issues in reliance on current dwindling job opportunities. I don't expect that we'll see the cull that happened a few years ago but I think that some firms will be closely evaluating emp'ees to see if they are getting good value; some may see it as an opportunity to shed dead wood.

Definitely don't want to do the management docs type of work that big firms provide. At 2 yrs pqe I want to increase experience by doing good quality work (in fairness, sometimes the quality of my work is great but it's not nearly consistent enough). Money is an issue though and at some point this outweighs the convenience of proximity to home.

How up front do you recommend being at interview? I am keen to lay cards on table - if firm does walk the walk then they will appreciate this. But would you suggest asking outright about their policies on family/flexi time etc ?

Would like to get details of your recruiter. What does 'cat' mean? (sorry)

Would welcome other suggestions as very often the perception is so different from reality. This week's gazette cites survey showing law firms as least family friendly sector!

The honest answer - IME and IMO a City firm will not be able to offer you the type of work life balance that you are seeking. There is a reason why the money is good.

If you charge clients a high hourly rate, you can pay staff more. However, people will only pay higher fees if there is a benefit to them. Sure, part of it is about technical expertise (particuarly in the techy areas like tax) and sometimes it's about brand name, but for the most part what they are buying is a responsiveness and turnaround time that fits with their needs. That means that, if you need to stay until 10pm to deal with their transaction, that is what they expect rather than a day's slippage in the timetable. If they call you at 5pm "I'll do that tomorrow" is still often not fast enough. As they see it, that is why they are paying the premium.

What that in turn means is that flexible working is very hard to accomadate. If you've left the office for the day, or it's a day you don't work, your colleagues X and Y have to do the work instead. It doesn't wait for you to come back.

Law firms in the City get a really bad rap for being family unfriendly. But, TBH, I think it's a question of 'you pays your money, you takes your choice'. A lot of them would love to be more family friendly, but know that the only way to do it is to dump work onto others, which is appalling for morale. If you want to be flexible in a City firm, it's not going to be a case of getting set hours 9-5. It's more likely to be working from a home office one day a week or a committment that you can leave the office at 5 if you log back on from home once the kids are in bed if needed.

The other thing I would say is that you should beware of what people offer. I know someone who moved firms on the strength of family friendly promises. I am sure that the firm meant them at the time, but six months down the line most of it had slid by the wayside.

CAT means contact another talker - mumsnet will put you in touch with my home e mail account.

I wonder if interview is the best place to be up-front about family friendly? By this I mean you do need to say you are looking for flexible working/ a 4 day week/ one day from home /whatever. It would be silly not to ask when this is important to you. I think you should ask how many other people take advantage of whatever you are offered in response to your question, and check their seniority. How good is a policy if no-one takes it up? But if the firm wants you, they will say whatever they need to at interview, as Ribena has said.

The real answers have to come from your recruiter, if they know the firm, or having drinks with the assistants before you accept the offer - do you really get to leave on time? do the part-timers get promoted? Bear in mind that the assistants will almost certainly report your questions back to the partners. You could also try the legal websites for gossip - Legal Week, Roll on Friday- but I think the responses tend to be more macho and city dominated.

At 2 PQE I moved from a west end firm to an American firm. My pay went up loads and my hours fell - it's just (!) a case of finding the right firm I think. There are plenty of West End firms who take the view that they pay less but offer more civilised hours. I don't think it's impossible to find in the City, but you need to remember that the flex works both ways. I always check my e mails after the kids are in bed, and if I need to work then I do. That might not appeal to you, and I think it is harder if you you are junior, because you might need to speak to someone or track down a precedent before drafting.

The other thing you could think about would be to look for a small team - sometimes it will be really really busy but other times it will be quiet and you can leave at 4pm.

Ribena I think your description applies more to corporate work than commercial property. I worked with top 20 City firm and a West End firm before qualifying and found that the expectation of working long hours was not as profound in comm prop as in corporate where for some juniors very often they were merely providing available hands if needed.

I do recall a few women flying out of the office on the dot of 5 or whatever so that they could relieve nannies/collect kids.

But I wonder what career progression these mummy trackers have had....

F'child, finding the right firm is the holy grail! This is why I started this thread. I believe that there are firms out there who must recognise that women are vital to their practice and that a woman who is committed to getting the job done within a fixed timescale is worth a lot to them.

For me it's not about magic circle/big city firms as I agree that the pressures will be greater in these firms (altho an A & O partner friend of mine told me that they have addressed family issues with a number of new initiatives and these will probably be looked at by competing firms, but we'd have to talk to assistants to know the real effect).

It's about finding firm that can offer good quality work with decent pay and still allow assistants to manage their family life. As far as law firms go it seems like that's a lot to ask but my instincts tell me that more will start listening.

Friday, I think I linked up with you via CAT but I've never used it before so am not sure. Let me know if you've received.

christ, no

Try the public sector - the regulatory bodies (eg all the 'Of - somethings', the FSA) offer good salary/work life balance. Central government pays less but is about as flexible as you'll get in terms of hours/working from home etc. And generally it is good quality work.

Maggie if you do not have an email from me let me know

Friday, thanks for your email and I have replied direct.

Mrschop have not really considered public sector before but it is food for thought.

Pollyanna has touched on in-house - from what level pqe do you think it is sensible to consider in-house? (I don't know if considerations would be similar to those surrounding PSLs, eg having base level experience to do job)

Is there any association of in-house lawyers? - might need to bounce a couple of questions off them.