Work in a school office-how much do you do above your working hours?

[Oodie8662]

I've been working in a primary school office for 5 months. Not worked in a school before. On the whole I'm enjoying it but I am gobsmacked by the amount of unpaid time all of the staff put in.
This would not happen in any other job and I wouldn't mind if 1. You were paid a decent wage but I'm on minimum wage and 2. You could claim overtime but I can't.
There is myself and my colleague in the office, plus an office manager. The office manager leaves at 2 every day. My colleague has been there over ten years and is close to retirement. She is in her words knackered so has decided to leave.
Working there for so long so knows how to do everything and is relied upon a lot by staff.
For example she organises discos and parties, does everything from the tickets, goes out and buys the food, plans the entertainment and then stays behind after school to help set up and help in the party then clean up afternoons often not leaving until 8pm. She finishes at 4pm.
She also organises everything for Xmas and knows everything what needs to happen. Stays behind for parents evening, goes and minutes meetings that are after school , goes and does banking in her own time, and buys things for school with her own money.
I think she is really taken advantage of and staff have just come to expect this from her over the years but also probably don't realise she's not getting paid for it.

Now I've wanted to work in a school for a long time, and I will help within reason, for the benefit of the kids, but I cannot and don't want to take her place once she leaves.
I have children and a sick husband at home and I finish at 3pm. I need to leave there on time to pick my kids up from school.
I don't want to be thought badly of but I need to say no to a lot of things. Am I within my rights to do this?

I work in a school and have to say it's the same. Everyone does way over their hours. I try really hard not to as a matter of principle because I don't think it helps anyone if it's expected.
However, the truth is, there's always so much more to do than time to do it in and it's hard not to feel invested when you work in a school. I had assumed it was just a secondary school thing.

And to your other point, all for not much more than minimum wage for support staff.

Our office, lunchtime and cleaning staff (apart from the business manager who works all hours of the day and night) start and leave precisely to their set hours.

Why Be a martyr and do it.

This is one of the issues. People let themselves be walked over and then bitch and moan about it.

And dont say it's for the kids and then resent it Don't be taken advantage of in the first
Place.

Your colleague is mad.

Don't let the school then push these things onto you.

When my kids were at primary we as the PTA did everything party and fundraising related.

We didn't offer food just drinks.

If everyone stopped plugging the gaps the system would be forced to change rapidly. Going above and beyond occasionally is a wonderful investment in a workplace, team and community but regularly, to such an extent it's most of the workforce just hides structural systemic failings.

Also 3 office staff. One leaves at 2 the other at 3 and one is retiring?

If parents need to speak to the office after school has finished who do they see?

Don't you do after school clubs etc?

lololulu and hebeaverandshebeaver are correct! Now she’s leaving it’s also the perfect time to point it out and nothing to lose by saying don’t pass this work onto other staff either.

When I started I told my colleague and my office manager my home situation and they said it was fine. Like I say the office manager leaves at her finish time and she never stays over to help with anything.
I've told my colleague that she's let herself be taken advantage of but her response was that she enjoys it , it's for the kids, and she doesn't have anyone at home so nothing to rush home for (her words)
I have a lot of people at home who rely solely on me . I need to finish at 3pm for a reason and I need the school holidays off. (She will often go in during holidays for free too to get more work done)
My worry is that it will just be expected that I will now be the person who does those things. I'm happy to organise everything and I'm happy to go out and buy things in work time (not my own( but I can't commit further than that.
The head even said to everyone in our inset day that there is an expectation on everyone. But the teachers earn twice as much as I do. I could earn more working in a supermarket which would be less stressful and less workload aswell, but obviously I need the school holidays so this is ideal

@lololulu school finishes at 3.15 and colleague is there until 4pm so they speak to her. She is being replaced by a new admin worker and they will match her hours.
Clubs are run by the teachers.
We have no PTA so nothing like that is done in our school.

Ours usually do about an extra 30 to 45 minutes a day, from chatting to them. Finish at 3.15, but remain until the last children have left and shut the office then.

All staff do a bit unpaid, in all honesty. I'm an LSA and usually do about 2/3 unpaid hours a week in little bits, breaks and end of day. I spend about £40 a year on school. This seems about normal across schools I've worked; I've never known people leave to their hours - I give advance warning if I actually have to leave on time. I think it becomes cultural in the sector, due to how teaching contracts work. Schools just work on an expectation that people will all work to the needs of the role, even if your role has a different contract... What you've described is well above the norm though and sounds like a bit of a piss take.

Stand firm oodie8862 going an hour over in an emergency maybe but to your colleagues extent is being walked over. ‘Just’ repeat v firmly I have to go every time. They need to learn. Remember she’s retiring early because she’s been taken advantage of and made it difficult for anyone else now.

I work in a senior support staff role in a school, over 20 years now, and this sounds very familiar...

In my experience, it only takes someone one time to help out in a role (that may have nothing to do with their normal job) and they become owners of that role for good. I ask my staff to be very careful in what they offer to help out in because of this. And yes, there's too much expectation for staff to stay late at events to support or help, often unpaid. I am full time, so have no directed time above normal hours and have had to demand that I'm politely asked for extra time, and even then I will take it back when I can. You need to set a precedence super quickly.

In terms of handover, she is going to take a lot of knowledge with her.

I would set up a One Note with different pages of all the different tasks that there are and for her to write a 'How To guide'.
Then work out better ways to do things.

Discos won't be that hard to organise
Can Disco food be ordered by the kitchen staff and set out by them - do you even need food or can you do a tuck shop with sweets ordered in or shop cakes donated by families and year 6s run it?
Clear up - can you organise a Year 6 Disco group who sells tickets at break and lunch time, choose a playlist and can stay behind and help tidy at the end supervised by whichever teacher is staying?

I work in a school office in France. Everyone works their hours and if I am required to stay later - even for social events - I get paid overtime or given time off in lieu for those hours. Why would you work so many hours for free?

I’m from the UK originally, I understand that it’s a different culture. My French colleagues would be baffled by this approach and it’s actually illegal to exploit workers like this even if they are doing it by ‘choice’.

I work in education support but any evening work is repaid in lieu. It is absolutely not industry standard to expect staff to just suck up working the extra hours!

I did 11yrs as a school sec (private primary) on what ended up as min wage and zero 'perks' (no sick pay etc.)
The amount of unpaid overtime needed to do the job, the workload, the constant communications all hours of day, night and weekends and the excessive demand from everyone - staff, parents, children - burnt me out and I walked away. Never been happier!
I'd lost sight of what is a normal workload in a normal working day.
They will push as hard as they can 🤷

Of course things will change when she leaves. But I totally get her - she loves it, loves being useful, loves making the school more successful. If she wants to volunteer those hours then that’s her choice, and very kind of her.

It isn’t assumed you’ll do the same - they said as much in the interview.

You could start by making a list of all the things she does for the school - it would be a brilliant part of her leaving presentation too, to acknowledge all the extra things she did to keep things ticking over.

From a business perspective, as cold as this sounds, supply and demand factors into this.

Schools will never struggle to fill admin (and pastoral) vacancies. Demand for these jobs outstrips vacancies. So those who are appointed are generally very 'keen' individuals, from my experience, who are prone to this.

Thanks for the replies. I'm not saying I will never do anything ever but as one person commented , once you've volunteered for something once then it is yours.
There are very new staff at our school, including the head and SLT , my colleague who is retiring is the longest serving member of staff so of course she knows how everything runs etc and what happens at different parts of the year.
She will definitely be taking a huge amount of knowledge with her and I am a little worried as to how the next few months will look, especially if her replacement has no school experience.
I was very lucky to get the job with no school experience, bit now I'm in it and I can see how that would be beneficial. My colleague has been so helpful teaching me my role and I don't yet feel experienced enough to show the new person!!
I shall stay as I am for now, if anyone calls me out on it I shall ask to be paid for it at the very least. I've always got a good come back that our office manager doesn't work a minute over

I think taking minutes at a meeting is one thing and I might expect I’d have to do that occasionally with time off in lieu for evening work etc. But the disco organising is something the PTA took charge of at DD’s school. Otherwise it didn’t happen.

There is no time given off in lieu for pur office staff.
The teaching assistants do, they have a sheet that they fill in each month , the head signs it and then they get time off.
Our office manager said we don't get one of those! I came in 30 mins early the other day to cover , there's been no mention that I can leave 30 mins early any time. It drives me mad. Surely it should be the same rule for everyone?
I get that meetings have to happen after school but surely they should have advertised our roles to cover that time? Neither of us finish at a time to cover a meeting- they go on until 4.30 /5

No time back or pay? Then you absolutely don't do it and it's unacceptable to be asked to. This is probably why your manager keeps hours to the minute.

If your school needs support up to 5pm, then they should be paying for it.

I think this is so common in schools and comes from the culture of teachers always doing work outside school hours, then the same is expected of other staff who are paid incredibly poorly compared to teachers - of course all the managers are teachers (or at least the managers managers are) and so it’s become embedded as an expectation and actually leads to a really poor working situation for staff who don’t have the same pay and conditions as teachers.

Yes, teaching staff are paid for directed time outside the normal school day. There is definitely an assumption from some teaching staff that support staff are required to also work these hours without pay or time back. I find 'expectations' rather offensive. If I'm not directly asked to provide outside hours support - and with plenty of notice, then it doesn't happen.