city lawyers - am I mad or not (to consider a part time PSL role)

[ponderingtheoptions]

(name change for this one although those who have met me in RL and discussed will doubtless recognise me - no outing!)

story so far:

*did law degree because really liked law, not because of burning desire to please anyone / achieve anything by becoming a lawyer. No partnership ambitions (hate management side of stuff / internal politics etc etc.). but generally thought of by others as good at job.
*qualified about 15 years ago so really old

• had DC (singular) nearly four years ago (maternity leave from MC firm)
• went back to full time fee earning between 6-12 months after birth
• about a year later moved in house (DH in full on long hours job with lots of travel. FT live out nanny but still difficult to juggle / didn't want to drop below minimum hours at home - now have reasonable hours but getting a bit bored / miss discussing law with people (but still like drafting / dealing)
• DC going to school in September *current nanny has to finish in August (visa issue)

Do I:

(a) stay in full time job and get new nanny (would have to be full time, prob live in - can't face juggling a "patchwork" of childcare)

(b) take reduced hours job (in house or PSL role), get au pair to do pick up, try and work out what to do with holidays

(c) take reduced hours job (say 10-4) with school holidays off (PSL role if I can get it).

Am thinking about option (c) - haven't got job in the bag but have been talking to a few firms who are fairly interested, so it's a real possibility.

Would that be mad? How awful would option (b) be?

help!

I think all the above mentioned options are workable. The question is what do YOU want to do and are you going to be challenged enough with reduced hours if you already are a bit bored. Also will you be sufficiently challenged intellectually if you are a PSL you seem to mention that you like "deals" won't you miss that?

I haven't seen many reduced hours roles operate successfully - but I am sure that all the options can work in theory.

Good luck

I'm a PSL - have been for years - was very bored at previous firm (Silver Circle) but changed jobs a couple of months ago and much happier now. Am happy to chat more about it if it would help?

I would try to go for C and if that did not work out, go for A.

C or A I think. B would probably be the worst of all worlds imho and ime. I tried part time/reduced hours and it was hideous but I was doing my "old" fee earning job. Now FT and it works much much better.

thanks for the responses (so far bearing out what I thought). I have done a brief PSL stint previously (genuinely interested in that sort of thing) although at the time was depressed about other stuff so not sure if I gave it my best shot. If I'm honest I will miss the cut and thrust of negotiation somewhat; however I see that as the trade off for the reduced hours (which I do want, as I'd like to be more involved with DC (by which I mean the education process, I don't see myself as uninvolved now by any means) now s/he is a bit older). I suspect the critical thing will be to ensure that whatever role I go into is at a place that treats its (senior) PSLs with some degree of respect and grants some degree of autonomy (my view is that as a PSL there's at least some element of making the job your own, rather than sitting back and waiting for people to tell you what you should be doing. I don't agree that the role can't be challenging intellectually).

One other consideration is that given I'm getting bored in my current role, I'd want to think about an alternative if I did stay in house - and I doubt there are many alternatives as family friendly as where I am now. (if I go with option (c) I will be soliciting for replacements in due course!)

ssb - we have met before briefly and I would love to have a chat at some point. I am off to an interview shortly, so may CAT you tomorrow?

Sounds like you have decided on the option. Good luck with your interview

I completely agree with you re senior PSL roles and that is part of the reason why I changed jobs. I have a lot more autonomy here than in my last job and I also get the credit for the good stuff (rather than my boss or a fee-earner getting it, grrrrr).

You can just email me if you like, [email protected] .

I am a senior PSL at a city firm, working four full days a week, and I find that it suits we really well. My DD is only two, and has a nanny, so not sure what I will do once she goes to school (au pair?). I do sometimes miss the excitement of working on big deals, etc. but there is little stress and I can leave at 5.30 pm without it being a problem. I agree there is a lot of autonomy - but because there are few deadlines, compared to fee earning, it is a bit harder to stay motivated... Overall, it works well for me - you still get a good salary, while having more of a home/work balance.

Intrigued. What is PSL?

My profession filled to overflowing with TLAs too but don't know this one.

Professional Support Lawyer

Sounds like you've got a bit bored being in house and would like to get back to law firm environment.
My advice would be work out what job and hours you want to do and make rest fit. If you do a job that does not fulfill you, you will get bored and frustrated and this will spill over into your home life. With full time school start in September timing seems perfect.

I am barrister, 13 years call so similar kind of vintage to yourself. I went back after DC1 (now 5), took reduced case load, got nanny share so flexible childcare whenever I wanted it and it wasgreat for a while. But the stress of juggling especially at start and end of days got too much for me especially with husband away a lot. So I havent now worked for 2 and a half years. Had another child and done other projects to keep me busy and have earnt good money renovating properties but am so bored and miss being in court. I'm now pregnant with 3rd and planning a few months back working to keep my hand in. My fear is if I try to return in 2 years time or so I will have lost my nerve!

I know contemporaries/female solicitors who have achieved what they want with PSL role but without the career prospects, sounds like you may not be too concerned by that, so could be a good option.

Re Childcare - you will find something that works. If you do close to full time I would go for flexible worker who will do household stuff and childcare so that when you are home its just fun with your child rather than chores.

Wishing you luck

What exactly does a PSL do?

it varies quite a lot from role to role, but generally

• drafting standard form precedents
• keeping up with developments in the law in a particular field, and briefing the fee earners on those developments
• internal training
• assisting with business development (contributions to pitch documents from a "legal issues" perspective)
• maintaining knowhow (not so much library stuff, but collective knowledge about market practice, advice given etc)
• acting as a bit of a sounding board for junior staff struggling with issues and too scared to ask their trainers
• acting as first port of call for junior staff who are too lazy or clueless to do their work themselves (hopefully small minority )
• helping out with fee earning work in the event of an emergency / because you have particular expertise in the area

.... you get the picture!

I was a PSL after taking 4 years off during which my 2 were born - did 3 full days a week and had a part time live out Nanny. It's a good job if you are not particularly ambitious (but if you were you probably would not have this dilemma!)and you can make it your own if you make sure people know that you are only there from x to y on such and such days and outside that you are not working (ie no Blackberry / phone calls)- otherwise you might as well go full time. You will still need to work in school hols so need to consider childcare issues. You may find that you are treated as slightly second best and some crustier partners may not appreciate your skills / experience and look at you as a glorified paralegal. Do not get sucked into helping fee earning work - you are not paid for that and you will get trapped into the situation of staying beyond your hours which is really not the point. You also need to consider pay - you wil get paid a LOT LESS than your contemporaries in return for being able to leave at 5.30 on the dot.

I gave up being a PSL after a couple of years for various reasons - mostly to do with the fact that I had a long commute so I was out of the house for 12 - 13 hours a day all in and my Nanny was actually taking home more money than me after I had paid her and my train fare - it just wasn't worth it. Also I just wasn't that "into" it. If you feel you need to do "something" then it may be the thing for you but you need to be realistic - it isn't the magic wand you may be looking for. Good Luck

Another option to throw into the pot - have you thought about going inhouse. I moved from a city law firm inhouse a couple of years ago. Still good work and responsibility but much better hours and less stress. Think a 4 day week inhouse can also be more workable as you don't have external clients to worry about.

Only you can decide. You could instead work for yourself which is presumably better paid and you can manage your own hours.

Or have some more babies,if that's possible.

Part time just tends to lead to very unfair and sexist marriages. May be get a better more prospects job and get your husband to be home more.

There's plenty of intellectual challenge about being a PSL if you find the right role - but if you love deals, it's absolutely not the job for you! Plus you always come second to the fee-earners as others have said (and legalalien right about being the first port of call for lazy clueless people... it can be frustrating). You would be very unusually lucky to get a job with school hols off. I know a couple of PSLs who've left over childcare arrangements because the job is not (financially and maybe generally) rewarding enough to justify the hassle and juggling they were having to do.
I'm a 3-day PSL, far junior to you and only for past year - I am glad to have my job but chose it specifically for the balance it affords (although I weep when I see what the fee-earners get paid). I'm sure you could find something good with your CV; we have always struggled to recruit suitable candidiates and I am always being called by the agents with opportunities.
US firms could be an option - pay very good and offering a "greenfield" - with a real chance to make the job your own.
If you have been happy until now doing FT I might be inclined to explore the in-house option someone else mentioned - maybe not the best time to be looking in the banks for opportunities but you never know. I would have gone for this but am having a second and hopefully a third after that, so wanted something that would work with a bigger family. Also I am incredibly lucky to have family childcare for the 3 days I do work, which is a huge factor for me.

Thanks all for your input. I have been going down the road of exploring option (c) and have the opportunity to return to a previous employer on a 10-4, term time only basis - it would essentially halve my current salary, but this isn't really a money issue.

Xenia - I can confidently say that I have absolutely no desire to be self employed; perhaps linked to my lack of desire to be a partner (lacking in ambition, entrepreneurial spirit I guess - destined to be the geeky person in the corner!). Re more babies - I can't actually have any more, but I'm intrigued as to why this might help?

For those who suggested in house work, I'm in house at present, but agree that it can be a fairly family friendly option. If it weren't for the possibility of term time only working, I would likely opt to stay put and negotiate some flexibility around start times.

So - a decision to be made in the next couple of days.....

(if I go for it I'll be back to organise a PSL get together - there seem to be rather a lot lurking on MN)

Don't suppose you're a securities lawyer as I know a good firm that's looking..!
(Not sure about the holidays thing though.)

right then (yes, I am ponderingtheoptions).

I just resigned (think I am in shock), to go with option (c). I think this is the right way to go, but the concept of not working full time feels, for some strange reason, more than a little scary.

someone say something supportive!

(anyone out there with 6+ years PQE, looking for a very family friendly, essentially commercial full-time lawyer role based at Canary Wharf, CAT me! )

Good luck! Afraid I can't help with opportunities (wrong place and wrong stuff really) but we have interviewed some unimpressive people who've gone on to get jobs at good firms - so I'm sure with your experience you will be fine. The market seemed short of decent candidates when we were looking a while ago. Well done for biting the bullet!

yes good luck! I'm a city lawyer too. Returned part time (3 days) after DS1 for about 10 months before having DS2. Been back now for about a month (DS2 is 13 months) on the same 3 days arrangement as before. I have to say it's a compromise on all fronts - I was a transactional lawyer before DC and that just doesn't work on a part-time, out of the office by 6 basis. So I get alot of "on-going" not very sexy files. However 3/5 of a senior associates salary is not bad and it does give me something else to fill my brain with. Not being an "academic" type of lawyer I have no interest in being a PSL! My firm has been very supportive in that I am not being "criticised" or "punished" but then neither am I being promoted . I used to be very ambitious but now accept that partnership is no longer possible without going full time or working longer hours on my office days. It's near on impossible to have a career on a part-time fee-earning basis, unless you were a partner before the DC arrived. I guess my priorities have changed as I'm actually not that bothered.
Quite honestly I'm finding very hard to be motivated, I'm missing my boys and I know that I want another baby at some point. Not good employee material !
Anyway - i hope you find the balance you're looking for.

Stay in full time work.

I suppose women just differ. Some of us very much do want to work and many do not want to go part time and enjoy the work and others don't and indeed a good few men don't want partnerships and want to work shorter hours.

I always enjoyed working full time although it was hard with three under 5 at one point but those three are all now at university and it was so worth it, having the career I love.

Hi 2hotcrossbunnies, i am a transactional lawyer at a city firm, currently on maternity leave and looking to go back 3 days a week. ...agree that transactions don't really go with PT work. Meeting with boss next week to discuss return - do you have any advice/hints re. 'selling'PT option? Any advice much appreciated..