How to deal with a few bitches in our Group

[Galdownunder]

I tried to think of a more coherent title and couldn’t sorry. So I’m fairly new to managing people in this role. I manage a team of about 20 legal PAs in a law firm. Most work well, both with me and with the wider firm but there’s a couple who have been here for 15+ years that are constantly obstructive, rude, ignore me or are abrasive and mean to others. HR won’t do anything about it for fear of upsetting the pretty powerful partners these 3 work for. My question is does anyone have any tried and tested strategies that worked for managing people like this? I was thinking about raising it in our monthly PA meeting but I feel like they’ll just complain to Hr or ignore me. Thanks in advance.

You manage 20 PAs and work in a law firm but can't think of a better word to describe people with unwanted behaviour than 'bitches'? Really?

Possibly hire some men as PAs so you don't have to use misogynist slurs.

Maybe they don't like you as you refer to other women as bitched

Get promoted out of the role.

There will be toxic people in all areas of business so it's not completely unavoidable, but sometimes you just have to work around the problem if nothing can be done.

If they are making life difficult for other people and not just you then you can raise this first with them and the colleagues it's affecting, and then if their behaviour continues to be unreasonable you can escalate it as a performance issue. But ultimately there are some people in some firms who you just can't avoid.

Stop calling them bitches.

Treat them as individuals, not a group. Point out specific examples of por behaviours and ask them nicely not to repeat it. Continue every time they do. If the partners complain, suggest they sit in on your next 1:1 with their PA to hear the specifics of what the PA is doing that is problematic, and point out it is bad for the business to have this situation.

I was a PA for a long time and totally get where you are coming from with the bitches remark! There is no middle ground. PAs are either super nice and helpful or the complete opposite.

I think I would set up 1 to 1s with everyone and befriend them. Get them to talk a bit. Find out what's going on behind that exterior. Ask them what would make their job better and what they would do to improve things if they were in charge.

There are often two sides to every story so don't make assumptions about them. Perhaps their workloads have doubled. Perhaps they've had interesting work taken away from them and given to a new person. The key thing is to listen so they feel heard.

Thanks for the advice and feedback. They are complete bitches so that’s going to stay until they act otherwise, but also some great advice so thank you. I’ll keep chipping away and hopefully we’ll come to a place where at least people aren’t coming to me in tears because of them anymore.

Can you offload their line management to the people they work for and shift them out of the wider team?

My head is in gundogs with the shooting season looming, so thought this was going to be about something completely different 🤣
I've worked as a PA in the corporate world and have met women like the ones you described all too often. If they were men you would call them bastards, but as they are women you are calling them bitches, so I don't find your language as offensive as some in this context. Unfortunately it's an occasional issue in the corporate world where a PA abuses a power position enabled by their unique relationship with a powerful director. There really is nothing you can do about it except for keep logging complaints with HR (make sure you keep records) so that at least there is a paper trail if and when a bullied staff member takes it to tribunal.

I wish @AlisonDonut. I think I’ll raise it at a group meeting reminding everyone and if they’re still doing it or someone else comes in tears I’ll just have to ask HR to deliver the message and see if that shakes them out of it. It feels like it’s an inability on their side to deal with stress or their workload or even something at home and if that’s the case they need to really sort it out or ask for help. I’m worried it’s going to get worse and ruin what is otherwise a great firm and a pretty nice culture.

Can you go down the route of them not taking out stresses on others and so if they want you can offer to move things about a bit and get them taken off the high profile higher ups?

It is very hard when people use their position to bully others but the one thing they want more than anything is that power. If they can't handle this then intimate that you are here to support them and if it is outwith of their wheelhouse to work for these people you are more than happy to start discussions about who supports who.
Are you ever in dialogue with the people they all support?

This is why I hate matrix management!

Can you look into your company policy on civility and respect at work? Or befriend HR and encourage them to sign the organisation up to a behaviour charter, which means you can then go down the performance management route in future if the unacceptable behaviour continues?

I understand the dynamic you mean, it’s not a new thing. (still think you shouldn’t use phrase bitches though)

tbh the only way through is to get the partners they work for onside on the need for behavioural changes. Plus the partners the other (upset) PAs work for to back the message. This type of PA won’t respect you but they will reluctantly change if the partners require it.

Yup, sign of a great culture is when it's ok for managers to call their (female) team members "bitches" 😂

Stop seeing them as a group, deal with them individually, performance manage them. That's what happens in "a great firm with a pretty nice culture". Setting expectations of behaviours to a group is absolutely fine, but calling out specific behaviours in public really isn't. Calling them out in public, and calling them "a group of bitches", is likely to backfire when they complain about you bullying them.

1:1s, with specific timely feedback, and avoiding misogynistic name-calling, are more difficult but the way forwards.

In any of my previous workplaces, this absolutely wouldn't be an issue HR would be involved with, it's line management - i.e. you.
Can you go on any management courses to help you learn some new strategies? I'm thinking of some particularly useful ones where I practiced having difficult conversations, playing out actual scenarios and ensuring I got what I needed at the end of the conversation, agreeing future actions, a date for check in to see how it is going etc.

Darl this is a public forum and I’m having a vent. I would never ever call them names at work, call them out publicly so that they’re shamed or feel threatened. Sorry you completely missed the point. One point I would thank you for is to see them as individuals which I think is something I’ll really take on board so thank you for that I appreciate it.

Thanks @Chewbecca thats great advice and I think on reflection you’re spot on. I need to sort this myself and I will definitely seek out some practical training. Thank you. I felt a bit lost and am grateful for everyone’s input.

I was thinking about raising it in our monthly PA meeting

Yeah, can see how I missed the point there 😂

Also not missing the point in saying, slagging off one's team anonymously on a public forum does not indicate a good working culture. You're the one missing the point - if this is your attitude behind their backs, it will leak out into your interactions with them and they will pick up on it. I didn't think you were slagging them off to their faces; but slagging them off behind their backs is still, I can tell this will be a surprise to you, not a good management approach 🙄

Please try to give them some constructive feedback in a 1:1 meeting. This is a great video to get some tips on how to give great feedback. https://www.ted.com/talks/leeannrenningerrthesecretttogivingggreatfeedback

How much power do you have, OP? Could you and the rest of your PA team all together "co-create" a vision for your team which translates into/impacts on team members' objectives for their performance? If so you could introduce something heavily focusing on collaboration and interpersonal skills etc and then use that as a point to challenge their behaviour and give it real consequences (performing poorly on an appraisal), for example?

I’ve been you! Law firms are awash with challenging personalities - the culture rewards tenacity and all that brings with it.

I attended a ‘Dealing with difficult people’ course (says everything as it was aimed at the legal profession) which was bloody fantastic. It wasn’t rocket science but so useful. M worth seeing if these are still running.

Main thing is to get buy in from the key individuals. They’ve got some influence so use that to your advantage. Make them feel as though you can’t do x project without their insight and push it back on to them “How would you propose we do x”. You’ll find working with them better than working against.

Strong personalities can make or break a team. Keep rewarding those with the values you want to encourage and they’ll soon get the picture.

Oh, and finally, you’re their manager, never their friend so you don’t have to worry about whether they like you or not.