HR ‘fun’

[PoutyTrouty]

Advice would be appreciated.

Poor, tired NHS worker here.

Had a meeting with my manager and a very biased member of HR.

My contract is very vague but my manager has been trying to send me to other work sites knowing I can’t get there on time (morning school drop off, first school age). The meeting was to discuss how this can be sorted.

HR lady suggested-

I pick one day every week I can travel and I can sort out alternative school drop off arrangements (I have absolutely no one else to do it)

Drop the children off at school earlier (like I can magically open the school gates 20 minutes earlier. Or leave a 5 year old waiting by the gate while I go on my jolly way).

Ask the fully booked breakfast club across the street if they can just have my children for 20 minutes so I can go to work (they’re not even registered at this club, she just seems to think that’s how breakfast clubs work)

Ask my other half to change his working hours. Which we can’t do because he collects them from school, so if he started later then we’d have no one to pick them up.

I offered to stay behind after my shift to make up for the time I’d be late but that wasn’t good enough. Even though there’s always something to do and I like keeping busy.

HR lady didn’t say a word to the manager about maybe just giving me that bit of flexibility.

This may be revisited in the near future, can I request that this naff HR lady is not involved this time? Should I complain about her bonkers suggestions to her manager?

Thank you, it’s really encouraging when people tell me to stand my ground because when they keep telling me I’m in the wrong I start questioning myself.

Theres plenty of staff that they can pick from. And I am happy to travel occasionally or when I can (half term, or when DH has annual leave). But they’re on my case about being able to go regularly.

There’s always staff around so nothing really stops or is held up if I am 10-20 minutes late. So no patients hanging around.

'Elsewhere occasionally' is just that, occasional. Not regularly.

If it wasn't advertised as a multi site role, then again, any additional travel would be occasional.

They need to find someone who CAN go there at the times they need, or recruit someone to tha role. If it is needed then a suitable person needs to be hired to do it. Who is doing your job when you are at the other site?

You can certainly stand your ground, but employers do have the right ultimately to decide that what they need from the employee in a particular post and the availability of the current postholder cannot be made compatible. If they have a legitimate need for the postholder in your position to be at site X by 9am and you simply cannot get there until 9:30am then it may be that you cannot be that postholder any more. Given that this is the NHS they are more likely to shunt you into a different role rather than terminate your employment but termination is a legitimate final outcome if all proper procedures are followed and no other resolution is found.

Never forget that HR is not on your side. The function of HR is to make sure that all proper legal procedures are followed so that you can't sue your employer for constructive dismissal if you get fed up and leave.

She was suggesting I take my kids to school earlier? I already take them for when the gates open, any earlier would mean leaving them hanging around outside on their own.

And telling me maybe I could just knock on the breakfast club door and ask them for a favour, like they can walk my kids across to school…

Bonkers suggestions.

I don’t mind having HR staff there, I just don’t want the same lady. I know that her and the manager have worked together a few times so they were a bit ‘matey’.

Someone told me HR are there for both sides, but it didn’t feel that way in the meeting

Termination would not occur in this situation. If they need the OP (or rather, her role as the job is tied to the role and not the person) and absolutely no-one else on a particular site on a particular date then this would have to go through as organisational change and the OP would be offered redeployment. This is usually avoided at all costs though for numerous reasons, so the union will push for alternative arrangements such as flexible start and finish times to accommodate carer's responsibilities, and they will (rightly) stand firm on the 'as and when' versus 'weekly'.

HR are not always helpful, that's true - but I've just gone through something similar with a member of my team and we all worked together to come up with a reasonable adjustment. It can be done.

Never forget that HR is not on your side. The function of HR is to make sure that all proper legal procedures are followed so that you can't sue your employer for constructive dismissal if you get fed up and leave.

absolute rubbish.

Has something changed in the last year meaning you’re being asked to do this more frequently?

absolutely agree this is a management issue to sort out (and was famous for asking managers that shied away from their responsibilities if they would like to give up the portion of their salary that was for their management responsibilities so they wouldn’t have to do it, or would they like the catalogue of management training opportunities 😉).

Frankly tell them to go fuck theneslves. Not because they are asking you to be there at a certain time. But because they are outlining things you could do like you don’t know anyway and like you can’t parent. I had this with one of them looking on the nspcc website to see what age my primary school child could be life home alone. I nipped it in the bud and said if it’s a problem I will just look for another job.

Frankly tell them to go fuck theneslves.

not sure what help a disciplinary for misconduct is going to do.

Well obvs not literally but I did by telling them that I’d get another job if it was a problem. It was a complete two fingers up at them as they wouldn’t have been able to replace me and I stayed for several years after. So yes they can go duck their micro managing ways.

They’ve had staff leave and are hiring over here with the intention of sending us all over to fill the gaps.

The whole department thinks it’s ridiculous but for some reason the management like it this way 🤷‍♀️

I love how you’re straight to the point 😂

Someone did tell me to ‘make myself irreplaceable’ but I’m the lowest band, they don’t care, staff turnover is shockingly bad but nothing is being done to change that.

Get on to your union rep again and remind them that you pay your fees for circumstances like this so they need to support you now.

Ask for the minutes of the meeting then reply to your manager and HR person addressing each point /suggestion that was made. Be polite but firm and factual. Quote from your contract the bit about "taking into consideration personal circumstances".

Don't let them force you out!

@PoutyTrouty a couple of questions

• does your contract state your place of work?
• is the travel time to the further locations paid work or your own time?
• forgive me, are you paid fairly near to National Minimum Wage?
• do you get expenses for petrol?

If your contract states your home office is A and it takes 5 minutes from home then potentially the extra travelling to and from sites B, C and D is 25+ minutes each way should be paid time. You could go to office A and arrive at your start time then travel to sites B, C and D as part of your working day.

The reason your salary is relevant is you should be paid at least NMW for travelling time.

My contract says I work for the Trust which covers 3 hospitals. I have been allocated a main site (5 minutes away) with travel to others ‘as and when required’. In interview they said this is occasional.

Travel time is my own time. Other sites are 30+ minutes on a good traffic day.

Yes about a penny above NMW, but increasing about 50p soon with the agreed pay rises.

I could get expenses but at first I never bothered because I thought it’s only two or three times a year. Then when sending me more frequently I thought well I can’t get there on time so I won’t claim the travel expenses, so it would kinda even out with my lateness (if that makes sense).

But now they’re insisting I get there on time and I can’t. And won’t allow me to stay over after my shift to make up that time.

My contract says I work for the Trust which covers 3 hospitals.

This is normal with NHS. The contract usually states you can be required to move site.
In reality most people don't have to move unless they're whole unit relocates which has happened to me, so you've been unlucky. I'd be inclined to stand your ground and say you can't do it so they'll need to find you another job. If you're clinical they're desperate for staff so ultimately won't want to lose you!
Involve your union if you're in one.

That’s quite normal - you would have a substantive base which is your main place of work and from which your business mileage is calculated. You would then be expected to cover other sites occasionally as per your discussion at interview. However weekly isn’t occasional, especially as it doesn’t appear from what you’ve said to have an end date? Normally a change like this would either be formalised through organisational change with the option of redeployment if your caring responsibilities don’t allow you to take on the role, or there’s an agreement for you to cover for a fixed term while they recruit to the post on the other site with flexible working arrangements put in place eg later start/finish while you’re covering this on a weekly basis to allow you to discharge your caring responsibilities.

Does this help https://www.acas.org.uk/working-time-rules/working-time-for-someone-who-travels-for-their-job

There’s no end date because they’re not hiring for the other sites. They’re just gonna send us instead.

Most staff are moaning about it but they have childcare options, and just do as they’re told.

Put in a flexible working request. They don’t have to approve it but they would have to prove they have a valid reason to refuse it.

They should always provide you with the minutes from any formal meeting.

If given a letter to attend, they should also ask if you object to anyone being there if following recommended procedures & also advise you of your right to have a union member or someone accompanying you.

If you don’t want HR lady to be there just object?

I wish people would stop perpetrating this myth! In making sure the employer meets their legal obligations, HR are both protecting the employer and employee!!

All any decent HR person here would want is a satisfactory outcome.

No reason why you can't ask for someone different from HR.

If employers expect flexibility from employees, they should be prepared to give flexibility to employees too.

I'd say the OPs employer ARE being pretty flexible..... they've offered to allow her to choose a fixed day each week, presumably to make it easier for her to plan childcare, rather than enforce her having to be at site on an ad-hoc schedule at the line managers whim.

I would argue that the phrase “taking into account personal circumstances” in your contract could be relied on here. At the moment your personal circumstances don’t allow you to do this, however as a long term employee your circumstances may change in the future in which case you would of course be happy to be flexible.

Exactly what I’ve been thinking! I was hoping to stay in this job for a while and work my way up, as the kids get older they can eventually make their own ways to school and I won’t have to be such a pain in the arse with my hours 😆

Hopefully you reminded the. Of this in the meeting and it will be in tge notes.

They sound like jobsworths if I'm honest.