Civil service office attendance query

[intrepidgiraffe]

I’ve applied for an SEO role in the MoJ and have got through to interview stage. The job advert says the role is suitable for full time, part time or job share and that office attendance is required 2 days a week minimum.

If I got the role and worked (hypothetically) 0.5, would it be realistic to get 1 day a week office based agreed (50% of the 2 days stated in the advert)? Or do you think the 2 day minimum is already taking account of part time, and full time would be more?

The role seems a great fit, but would involve a 2 hour commute both ways to the office, and I’m not sure I could make it work if I needed to do the 4 hour round trip more than once a week…

And is there any suggestion the typical 60% requirement might change after the election?

I'm part time in the civil service and the 60% that our department requires is pro-rata. I would anticipate that the two days would be calculated as 40% office attendance. Which would, on your 0.5 example, be 1 day.

If you're offered the job check what's contractual - new joiners in our department were definitely screwed over by the job advert then the (admittedly unanticipated) 40-60% increase. A lot of people were surprised that 40% wasn't part of our contract.

There's hope that a new government will row back from the 60%, but I personally don't feel it's likely. I'm not expecting it to be increased from 60 though.

Depends to a large extent on your boss and your need for certainty. I know a lot of people who never go in. Feel bad for the obedient types who do 60% to the letter.

Assuming it's in London I don't think an SEO salary is worth going in every week.

Congrats on the interview! I’m not MOJ but my understanding is days in office is always pro rata. So if you do half of the hours, you attend 60% of your hours.

It’s usually 60% so for 0.5 I would anticipate it being 1 day 1 week and 2 days the next week alternating

Thanks all, this is really helpful.

@OptimismvsRealism that's really interesting - I'd read the 60% was completely non-negotiable (which is why I was surprised the job advert only says 2 days - although as @Merrow says maybe it's the job advert which isn't up to date with current requirements).

It very much depends. A lot of civil servants hate it and don't want to lose skilled people to bullshit. But there's always a chance you'll be in a keen bean rules team who can't handle the demise of After-work Drinks.

Hope you're not in any comms related department at MoJ

Toxic

Good luck and sure you can negotiate it

My department only does 40% as we no longer have office space for more, and at some sites with very little space it is 20%. All pro rata
But some departments are stricter and also strict over flexibility of hours.

Probably depends on the department how the 60% is monitored - where I am they can tell from your IP address where you are, and a report on office attendance is automatically generated. Our DD certainly cares so I assumed it was part of their management targets.

On the flip side there is a madness where people are refusing to come in for 60% and give all sorts of reasons. Since Covid people no longer want to work in the office and certainly in civil service they appear to have lost track of actually normal working.

The flip side for me is going into the office is pretty much a waste of time (and a lot of pollution as it's 50minute drive, and no public transport alternative). Because often when I get there there are few people there, yesterday it was 4 from my directorate. Most of my team are hundreds of miles away, so I'm still collaborating over Teams.

The 60% in the office wasn’t set by the Govt. it was set by the PUS.

My PUS admitted this in an all-staff a few weeks ago (then went bright red and spluttered through the rest of the questions like some sort of awful comedy sketch)

XWH PUS took the collective decision to have staff in more - in part because new starters and junior grades felt they were disadvantaged by not being able to learn, in person, from seniors.

Also, Romero is MoJ PUS and although she’s lovely - she’s one of those that expect 100% attendance from those around her. And shit rolls downhill - as my parents say.

I’d worry that the job ad wasn’t up to date. I’m on maternity leave but when I was last in the office they were really trying to push for 60% and stepping up monitoring

Remote is normal now.

As I always say if I were forced back to the office the main thing my juniors would learn is what 8 hours a day of suffering is like.

Monitoring is so demeaning - why wouldn't everyone leave! Except the weirdos.

I'm not CS but work for a huge international that works closely with govt. they're rushing 60% for us too. I don't work FT so get away with 2 days pw which is more than enough but also doable.

It'll depend entirely on the culture or your dept and manager.

I agree with this. I find it so alien with MNers talk about what time they have to be at their desk and set break periods. Demeaning - unless you're customer facing.

In my department it is pro rata according to how many hours you work too.

BUT your contract may well officially say that your work location is a specific office, so at some point in the future they could require you to attend the office every working day. I think this is unlikely, for a start we couldn’t all fit in the office, but it is something to bear in mind. There are quite a few unhappy people in my department who joined during Covid and thought they would be OK working from home all or most of the time and then got a shock when they realised their contract specified their location was an office and they could be required to work from there.

Attendance would be pro rata I expect but I wonder whether they'd allow 0.5 as a work pattern at SEO especially for a new entrant. The usual minimum when I was a civil servant was three days. Less than that by exception and not for a new joiner because induction is so much harder. If you haven't already asked I would think about whether you're prepared to do three days minimum.

Staff who like it, great. Those who hate it need to vote with their feet.

@NashvilleQueen that's a helpful point thanks. Do you think that could be the case even though they've advertised it as suitable for job share? I'd be very happy to do a job share, but as I'm not in the CS already don't have anyone I know to join up with at this stage.

Do you think I should be finding out all these details now? I was planning on going through the process and when they ask/ if I'm offered the job saying I want part time etc etc. But i'm wondering if I should be asking these questions now...

I don’t see any harm in asking. There’s usually an email contact on the job adverts so you can ask there. If you’re relying on certain conditions be aware that if it’s not in your contract it might be subject to change. My manager is quite easy going so would never chase people up about their time in office but that’s changed due to pressure on him.

Thanks!

Everyone has been so helpful, have thought of something else...

If I did get the job, and went in 1/2 days a week, could I always go in on, say, a Wednesday and Thursday - get childcare arranged, book trains in advance etc, or would there need to be more flexibility to coordinate with colleagues, be in at the same time for meetings etc?

Hi @intrepidgiraffe often the favoured job share model is three days each with you overlapping a day for handover of work. It may vary depending on the department but we would never have recruited a new joiner on less than three days. Does the post have line mgt responsibility?