Corporate role at a University vs Civil Service

[Internationalpony]

Hi all,

I’d love to hear your experiences of what it’s like to work at a University and even more so if you have experience of both universities and the civil service!

I’m in my thirties and I’ve been a Civil Servant for most of my career but have done a couple of secondments, one to the third sector and one to the UN. I’m in a fairly senior (SCS1 role).

I found working at the UN and third sector roles very slow paced by comparison and I know the UK Civil Service isn’t exactly a tech start up but honestly the other organisations felt much more old school by comparison! I’m in one of the smaller policy Departments which has a great culture, young workforce, high performing, collaborative and it’s fairly easy to get things done.

I’ve been in my current role for a couple of years now and I’ve recently been offered a role at a Russell Group University. The role is similar to my current role but the scope of the role / size of the portfolio is smaller although I’d have the same size team and I’d have a PA so I think the workload would potentially be lighter! The title however sounds much grander and the pay is 40k more than I’m currently earning.

It’s very tempting but I thrive on working in a fast paced political environment and I’m worried I’ll find it slow paced and old fashioned like my secondments but in reality I have no idea what university working life is like and I could be completely wrong! I’d love to hear from people who have insight into what it’s really like.

Thanks for reading!

Bumping the thread!

If you're in one of the departments which is far too top heavy (the central four) there's lots of VES talk. If I were you, I'd try and wait until details drop on that - ideally you'd get the VES payment and the better job!

But if you can't wait, I'd leave the CS. £40K is a lot. If it was £10K I'd say no...but at SCS one, that's what...a 30% pay rise? Maybe just over.

You could always come back in a year or so if you don't like it - by then the CS will have realised they let too many staff go and be back into recruiting like mad.😄So with your experience it'll be fairly easy to get back in.

Bear in mind in many universities (especially RG) staff in professional services roles really struggle to get promoted. Usually you have to move roles to move grade and it's harder as you get higher up the grades. I'd definitely ask about it

Thanks for sharing this. To be honest I wouldn’t be looking to get promoted as the role (which is grade 9 if that means anything to you!) reports into the Chief Operating Officer which isn’t a role I’d want and I’d be happy with this salary for the next few years. I’d probably move back to the Civil Service or to another sector when ready for a new role but I don’t want to have a miserable / unfulfilling few years if I find it isn’t a good culture! Really appreciate any other insights you can share!

Yes true! It’s not that I can’t wait, I enjoy my current role, it’s just that I’ve been in it long enough to start thinking about the next step. I’m not based in London though so good, well paid roles in other sectors don’t come up too often and I’m worried about missing the boat if I wait for VES.

I think the main issue is that academic roles are given a higher status so be prepared to be ignored or have your ideas dismissed. If it's £40000 more and you know you will leave after a few years then I think it's worth it. But long term it's a disaster and the sheer pettiness of it all will wear you down

There’s usually a lot of politics in University roles. Both within the centre and also between the centre and the departments.

One common way to climb the ladder in those kind of roles is to switch institution, so think about whether you’d be prepared to move or if other similar institutions are commutable. If you’re dead set on going back into the Civil Service that might not be so much of a consideration of course.

Culture varies hugely by institution, so it’s difficult to comment on culture generally. Different universities aren’t like branches of the same institution in different places. They are often vastly different.

I can think of half a dozen RG I would never have wanted to work in a million years, about four I would have actively wanted to work in and the rest in the middle, well it would have depended on exact role/pay/what life stage I was at.

Thanks for sharing! Did you find the pace is quite slow? What’s the office culture like?

I don’t visualise a long term career in the university sector to be honest as the narrow focus, lack of career opportunities etc doesn’t appeal to me, so I’d do it with the intention of only being there a few years for this role.

I’m not dead set on a return to the CS but from speaking to friends/ex-colleagues who have moved to other sectors places like the BBC and Deloitte - large corporate organisations - are pretty good transitions from the CS so I’d look to places like that if not the CS (role dependent).

I don’t want to make the jump if I might end up hating it and feeling like I’m having to stick it out for those few years though!

Are you able to share the list of “would never work at” and “would actively want to” please?

You will find it slow paced, bureaucratic and inflexible. Speaking from experience as someone who has just moved from industry into a professional services role in a university. It's been a huge adjustment for me and I'm still not sure it's the right fit. I've worked third sector and that was more fast paced and I liked it. I haven't worked in the CS. I'm a lot older than you OP and slowing down in my career now because it feels right after years of fast paced industry stuff, but while a role working amongst academics was tempting, I think it might turn out to be too slow for me. It's still early days and time will tell.

I’ve worked in four RG universities. None of the offices I worked in were slow paced. How that related to the other departments varied.

There were often a lot of frustrations in my type of department about other departments not moving quickly enough/being responsive enough. That said, with hindsight, that wasn't
always a bad thing.

To some extent, the older the institution is, the more likelihood there is of the weight of tradition being a factor. That’s doesn’t always hold though.

Office culture was massively different in the each. Really chalk and cheese. Generally fairly sociable, but the departments I worked I where all very outward facing so more likely to attract that type of person.

I’m not sure sharing those lists would actually help you? As they are very much dependent on the type of environment I would be happy in, and you might be totally different. None of them were so absolutely toxic that I feel they wouldn’t suit anyone at all.

If you are really worrying about fitting in/being bored etc, my best advice for you would be to find someone who works for the institution and talk to them. It necessarily directly sound them out, just have a conversation with them. And also not necessarily in the same department.

If you don’t know anyone through a personal or professional connection, just ask to speak to someone in a similar role there. Or ask to do a half day shadow before or after interview. Most universities I have worked in would be open to that.

I would say that you seem fairly direct. That can work in a University setting. However, generally speaking, a slightly more oblique approach does tend to get on better.

You also say:
I don’t visualise a long term career in the university sector to be honest as the narrow focus, lack of career opportunities etc doesn’t appeal to me, so I’d do it with the intention of only being there a few years for this role.

The politics and complexity in University roles tends to mean you have to really want to do them to get anywhere. By that I don’t mean get promoted, I mean get anywhere in terms of your job function.

There will be people there who have been at that University or in the sector for decades and they will be fairly practised at chewing up and spitting out people unfamiliar with the sector or institution.

They can and will just ignore you if they think they you’re not going to be there for long.

Bit odd to try and judge my professional approach based on an anonymous mumsnet thread! I’ve worked in diplomatic roles, I think I can handle some university politics! I’m trying to get a sense of whether I’ll find it fulfilling or not, not whether I’ll be successful in the role.

And that reply is probably exactly why you couldn’t handle University politics.

If your ability to be successful in the role has no bearing on whether you’d find it fulfilling or not, then it’s probably not the environment for you.

Where did I say my ability to be successful in the role has no bearing on whether I’d find it fulfilling? I know I’d be successful in the role because as I said in my original post, I’ve already been offered the role, it’s less responsibility that my current role and my experience (working at No 10, the UN, diplomatic roles) means I’m not expecting to find the role remotely demanding but I am concerned I could get bored!

I am very confident that university politics will be easier than handling ACTUAL politics working with Ministers and the PM.

I don’t need strangers on mumsnet to tell me whether I’d be successful but if it’s people like you who work in the sector I’d find it a very toxic environment!

I think that's a bit harsh on a PP who was trying to help explain what it was like working at a university.

You are senior and successful and I'm sure you'll make a go of it. I know a few people who work in Universities and they can be fast paced, but it really depends I think on the Uni. For example, if you are talking Oxbridge then the college also really matters and if it's a University only role then you may find it frustrating as decision making is distributed and the colleges don't all agree. I know people at the big London unis and they work hard and long hours (not academics btw) and seem to always be trying to effect change. It seems reasonably fulfilling from the outside.

I made an industry career jump and had some of your concerns. So the things I looked out for, was my boss (in your case the COO) committed to change and transformation? Was my boss prepared to give me free rein over some decisions? Did I have budget and agency over that? Did the work that I was being brought in to do have the support and backing of the board? Would I be able to recruit or was the team fully resourced?

All of these were answered in a decent post offer chat with my to be boss

I wasn’t harsh at all, she’s now edited her posts to soften then and make them sound nicer. I think it’s harsh to tell a stranger asking for advice on the culture that they won’t be successful in the role, couldn’t handle the politics and will be chewed up and spat out. She couldn’t possibly know that about me so why say it other than to be toxic?

Your post is actually helpful so thank you.

“I am very confident that university politics will be easier than handling ACTUAL politics working with Ministers and the PM.”

🤣🤣🤣

oh dear @Internationalpony i don’t think you get it at all and people are trying to be helpful here.

I did the first decade in my career at a RG uni, working in a variety of roles and depts. I then did the next 5 years at an ALB. The two had some parallels in terms of being oddly dysfunctional but in different ways. In figuring my next move I do look at the uni as it’s nearby but it would really need to be the right role as universities are totally bonkers. I think I can handle it as I have my eyes open, but I’m unsure I want to.

the salary rise is good, the culture at the uni is worse than my ALB, but think about pension, presumably your CS pension is the bomb. Your uni pension won’t be.

I went from NHS to university (as a lecturer though), in comparison there was a lot of pressure about absolutely pointless stuff.

People got very stressed about deadlines for assessments etc, changing rules / processes and targets which seemed very OTT when you’re used to dealing with literal life and death.

The pattern of the year impacts greatly on the work you do, in my experience, as a lecturer there are times when you’re so busy that it’s a challenge to find time to eat and sleep and there are times when it’s very slow. In the professional services side this is still the case but not so extreme.

I would disagree that the power sits with the academics, the power sits with administrators. Rules are made by them to ensure the smooth running of the back office and the academic side has to bend to their processes even if it affects the student experience.

However academic egotism and snobbery is a massive issue. Many people are there purely to further their own career and reputation. Which is something I struggled greatly with.

Working in an ALB, which doesn’t involve working with Ministers at all, is very different to working in central government and diplomatic roles! It’s basically a different sector altogether.

I’m quite open about the fact I don’t know what the university sector is like which is why I’m asking for advice but I don’t expect to be told my strangers (a PP) I won’t be successful just because I’m asking!

What is uniquely challenging and “bonkers” this sector specifically?

I think having worked in three different sectors, some very fast paced and some extremely bureaucratic (I don’t think anywhere could match the bureaucracy of the UN) I’m adaptable and will be able to handle the role, my questions were to help me figure out whether I’ll actually enjoy it. So what do I not “get”?

I am very confident that university politics will be easier than handling ACTUAL politics working with Ministers and the PM.

I wonder if you might find this challenging. You’re obviously used to dealing with high level, important and complex situations. The university will see their stuff as all these things and expect you to take them very seriously. If you’re anything like I was (until I became indoctrinated) you’ll be thinking ‘what’s all the fuss about?’

I have worked at relatively senior levels in a RG university for getting on for 20 years (I've also worked in the private sector and elsewhere). Universities are highly complex, interconnected organisations full of clever people, and this is what makes them so fascinating to work in.

I think you should take what PPs say seriously.

Getting things done is a marathon rather than a sprint. As a professional services colleague, your positional authority will have traction for some staff groups but not others, and you will need to rely on moral authority when dealing with academics.

You have to really believe in the value of scholarship and research, and take a partnership approach with the academic community in order to achieve goals, which ultimately will be (or should be) driven by academic priorities.

Culture is very local. At institutional level, your ability to act may depend on how discrete your service is - e.g. if it's marketing, you may only need to interact with a relatively limited group of people, and if you get them onside, you will be able to do good things. If it's academic services or IT, this will be highly interlinked with the operational delivery of teaching and research, and you will need to decide the extent to which you engage with lots of local cultures and how far "down" the hierarchy you go, recognising that influence doesn't necessarily align with job roles.

You should also be aware that the sector is going through some upheavals which have hit some institutions sooner than others. This obviously brings with it a different set of issues depending on whether the institution you are considering has already gone through a change programme or not.

Universities are a great place to work but in my view you have to really want to do it to get all the benefits. Having said that, £40k is a lot of money!

I can't say if how you would find working in a univeristy op but I'm leaving mine because I can't cope with the disorganisation, misplaced priorities, pettiness, myriad pointless deadlines that are unenforced but cause stress, poor financial decisions and ultimately the blind leading the blind.

I've also worked in the CS and UN and my best description would be to imagine that bureaucratic approach with about half the staff operation well below par and everyone pulling in different directions. I've worked in war zones that I've found less stressful and frustrating!

Why not give it a try but keep some options open, and good luck!

As someone who works in a corporate role in an ancient University, this is an excellent post - I concur with it all.

Each University is its own microculture - a large research intensive university will be very different from a more recent, teaching led university which will be very different from a small, specialist institution. As my University is ancient, tradition can weigh heavy, which can be both bonkers and wonderful. In my experience, working here does not compare to anywhere else and can be a culture shock - staff seem to either leave within the first year or stay forever - you love it or you don't.

As the PP said, you work with insanely clever and inspirational people so need to have confidence in your professional expertise and what you are bringing to the table. In my institution you have to work collabaratively and take people with you - it is a very devolved approach and top down mandates never work. If you prefer a command and control culture, University life is not for you.

😂😂 I probably will be thinking that but I won’t mind because fuss is what I thrive on so I’ll probably just go with it!

I like working in reactive environments and the roles I’ve really struggled with is where nothing really happened, people had been in their roles for years and just wanted an easy life, no one wanted to rock the boat, there were minimal demands on me in terms of delivery and everyone was cautious to the extreme. There was never anything “urgent”. I’m more concerned about working in a culture like that again as I think it would slowly kill me!

What has your experience been like otherwise?

Thanks for sharing your insights.

Thank you for taking the time to write this - these are incredibly helpful insights!

Partly what's broken me is that everyone talks about change but then very little happens. And when I said before about people working under par I don't necessarily mean they are not incredibly skilled/capable but often they are overloaded and undervalued. It has been the slow pace that has pushed me out, I can't face another day of trying to justify my (fully resourced uni endorsed) programme to anyone else to get traction. It's relentless.