solicitors and barristers, and even trainees, please tell me about your work/home balance..

[fairylights]

A bit of background first (please bear with me!): having worked in various roles doing advice and advocacy work for the last few years I am now doing the Graduate Diploma in Law part time, with the long term intention on becoming a solicitor (I think). I am coming towards the end of my first year, so have another year to go, then the LPC, again probably 2 years PT.
I have one ds who is 17 mo and would dearly love to have a couple more dc, and my plan (very much subject to change!) has been to do all the academic bit whilst my dc are young and then head out into the real world and training contracts/work when they start in school. Obviously, this will mean spreading my course over quite a long time, but I am able to stop and start it (within reason) which is handy as my last pg involved a lot of time in hospital, and obviously it would be nice to have some time at home with any little newborn.
However, I am currently grappling with whether this is a reasonable/logical plan - will the start of my career be fraught with really long hours? Will I ever get to see my kids? What childcare do you have? How do you cope with the holidays? Do you ENJOY what you do?!
The reason I am also asking barristers this Q is that my department have suggested I try a mini-pupillage with a local chambers in the summer. I had never considered becoming a barrister and imagine it being very competitive, hard work and long hours. However, the fact that they have suggested this to me has started me wondering..
As I am currently an SAHM I can't imagine the other extreme at all and would just like to hear what your life looks like if you are a solicitor/barrister/trainee. Thanks!
p.s. I would hope to go into immigration/family law, certainly what used to be termed "legal aid" law, rather than any high flying stuff involving business/litigation!! ( no offence to those of you who are doing that though, respect to you )

bump?

Agree with Anniemac, it will depend entirely on what sort of law you do, and whether in a big city or small town, huge firm or tiny practice.

I worked very long hours as a trainee, a typical day was 8.30am till 7pm in the office, and some weekends, but that was in a City law firm and we were all in our early twenties so didn't mind (or at least didn't feel we could object to) the long hours culture. I've since worked in more relaxed places.

Doing family law in a smaller firm, I imagine you will normally have more regular hours than, say, someone doing corporate work in a big city practice. However, any type of law is a service industry and client-driven, so you will always have the odd day when you need to stay late or work at weekends.

It can be a hugely rewarding career, with very interesting and intellectually demanding work. It can also be very tedious, and there is a lot of admin/paperwork/compliance red tape which can be frustrating.

I'm a SAHM at the moment, but plan to go back in a few years (if I can!), partly for the money and partly because I do miss the work.

yes, sorry for all the Q's . have a lot going around my head.. thanks for answering!

life as a barrister in practice means being at the beck and call of other people, mainly the chambers clerks.

it means being dumped at 6pm with 2 lever arch files to read and absorb by the following morning because one of your colleagues has not finished their trial and you have to step in.

immigration work in particular can be very urgent, so you have to stay late preparing documents for the following morning (eg to stop deportations)

it often means travelling (within England, at least) at short notice.

so it is not very family friendly unless/until you become quite senior and can start to dictate how & when you work.

it can be however immensely interesting, rewarding, work with the huge satisfaction of answering to no-one in how you do it and obviously the potential of great respect and esteem when you do it well.

a mini-pupillage sounds like a good idea, I think you would get a lot of insight fom it including whether you see yourslef doing advocacy either as solciitor or barrister or anythign else.

Hi FL.im an equity partner in a largish provinvial practice. I work 12 hour days most days........have a nanny ( and my children are at school ).

Its v hard work and yes I think that for the majority of lawyers it is very stressful. These are uncertain times........with the clementi issues and credit crunch.

You will need to be abs committed . You may find it hard to get a training contract as there are far too many people wanting to do it and not enough jobs.

I enjoy the work but do get to the end of the week feeling like I have been pulled in a million different directions and quite often dont see my children for days at a time as I leave before they get up and come back after they go to bed.

But I am very well paid and I know of lots of female colleagues who chose not to take partnership are not so well paid but do have a much better work life balance. Partnersip is often a golden handcuff!

If you really want to do it then Go LF........I will provide support and advice along the way.

GOOD LUCK !

The large city firms corporate/corporate support work tend to have very long hours which can be tough if you have children, but people do manage.

I'm a senior associate in a magic circle firm. I really enjoy it and I think I've got it about right now. I was qualified long before I had my children so was pretty well established before they came along and, for me, I think it made it easier. I tried p/t but that didn't work for me because I was doing just as many hours for less pay and I felt I had to justify everything I did and had more to prove.

My dh is a senior partner in another magic circle firm. He is hugely supportive and, amazingly, really does pull his weight with the children. We live near our work which really helps - no long commutes and often don't have to leave the house until 9 so we get to spend literally hours with the children in the morning before we go to work. We also have a super flexible nanny who helps it all work smoothly.

In short, it works for us and I love my work and my life. However, I know I am hugely lucky to have amazing support from my dh, nanny, employers and also to live so close to work.

I do know a lot of "High Street" and family lawyers and some of them work really really long hours and very often at weekends. Don't assume that family/High Street means less hours!

been a barrister for 13 years criminal work. just had my first little one and am now facing dilemma of what to do.

Absolutely love love love my job, but now feel same about little one.

Once you get senior enough the job can be quite flexible if you have supportive solicitors and clerks. You can do a couple of cases a year until you are ready to go back full time.

The longer you do it and the better you are the more control you have over the amount of work and more importantly running around doing other peoples bits and pieces that you do. Once you get there then you can organise your work so that the balance is better but the first few years are very tough.

Also you cant really do part time like you can as a solicitor.

hope that helps

I am in a similar position Fairylights, although slightly further down the track. I am halfway through PT LPC, having previously done GDL by distance learning PT. I am currently having a year out due to having had DD3 last year (she is now five months). My older DDs are 6 and 8. I have a training contract lined up with a local firm for Sept 2009. I really want to do it, like the firm very much etc but am very worried about how I will cope. I will have to work full time for the two years of the training contract but I hear that the firm is very good later on in terms of flexible and part-time working as we are within commuting distance of London and by being more flexible I think they get higher calibre staff. I would welcome ideas from anyone on how to cope with the two year training contract.

hi christinaF - I would VERY much like to kepp in touch with how you get on!! I think I will be following a v similar path to you..
sorry have been ill the last few days so haven't been on MN so hope you will still see this..
where are you doing your LPC? I am doing my GDL at De Monfort in Leicester and will probably do my LPC there too. Its great that you have a TC lined up - what do you think you will do with DD3 when working? And how did you find the firm??! Also, were you quite up front when applying for TCs that you had a young family? Lots of questions..
I am not set up to be CAT-ed but can do if you would like to get in touch with me that way.. obviously i can't be of much use to you but i would be really interested to hear how things work out with you. All the best

I was quite senior when I had my children and now I work FT still.

I think the field of law you specialise in when you qualify, and the firm you work at, play a large part in work-life balance. I do real estate, which does not lend itself to endless late night completions. It is quite long hours, but the are predictable, so you can plan your life and childcare with some degree of confidence. Also if you are determined to be home at bedtime, you can just put your head down and work, and get in as many or more hours as someone who is happy to spend all hours at their desk. I have only ever worked in London, but there are people who spend all day on the phone or (ahem) internet chat sites, and then only really start work at 3 or 4pm. Unsurprisingly they are still in the office late at night and over the weekend.

As someone else has said, immigration work does have last minute emergencies, and that will inevitably affect your work/life balance. I do know a number of family lawyers who work PT though - successful as long as you are prepared to take the odd call from a distressed client on your "day off".

And FFIW, personally I found it easy to leave my DCs when they were little. It's now they are starting school that I am thinking about PT work. Maybe this will help fairylights survive her training contract?

I do property law in a medium sized firm in Surrey. It frequently involves long hours - people's moving dates can't be moved just because you want to go home.

I do 4 days per week, work about the same number of chargeable hours as my full time colleague, frequently work 8am to 7-8pm and get paid 4/5th of the full-timers pay.

Work/life balance in all types of law is pretty crap as far as I can see for me, my colleagues and other friends in the business. It doesn't seem to matter what size firm you work in and where it's based. Sorry for the depressing post, but that's the way it is.

Have just looked through the thread and realized that I hadn't seen some of the posts - thank you all so much for what you have had to say. It is interesting that there is such a variety of experience, although there seems to be universal agreement about the long hours and the particular hard graft at the beginning of the career..
have to say I probably feel more daunted now seeing as so many of you were so senior before you had your dc, but then I think I just need to hold onto the thought that one day I may well be doing a job I really get satisfaction from. I just hope that I will also be able to see my children!
And especially thank you for your offer of support and advice along the way mummypoppins, I am also in the midlands (east mids) so you may even be able to give me some helpful local knowledge!

Hi Fairylights. Have only just seen your message, so apologies for the delay in replying. I am doing my LPC at the College of Law, Guildford. I have done half of it and will start the second half in September. I am planning to put DD3 in a nursery near the college while I do that. When I go back to work, not sure yet, probably a nanny although that will probably take up my entire salary but I can't think of how it will work with the other two during the school holidays otherwise. I am quite worried about how I will cope (which is why I have been looking up work topics on MN!) but have decided to go for it and see what happens.
I applied for my TC before DD3 was conceived. At the time I had two DDs who were going to be at school full-time by the time I started the job. I think it will be much more difficult now I have DD3 but she is gorgeous and we'll just have to see how we manage. The firm were very kind about postponing my TC for a year. I am thinking about specialising in something like Private Clients because I hear the hours are fairly family friendly. Don't know if anyone has any views on this?
I did my GDL at Nottingham Law School by distance learning over two years. I just had to go to Nottingham for 4 weekends a year and DH or my mother had the girls.
I am not set up for CAT either but will have a look how to do it tomorrow so that we can contact each other.
Good luck with it all. ChristinaF

thanks for getting back to me ChristinaF,
i have put my email address on MN before so i guess i might as well now rather than you having to do the CAT thing! So i'm
rachelfarrier at hotmail dot com
hope you can work that out. Do email me if you would like to stay in touch. I would be really interested to hear how things work out for you. I had similarly been thinking that I would start my TC when dc are in school FT but seeing as I only have one so far and would like more I am not sure how that will work, unless i really spread out my course! But would really like to have a TC under my belt before/during the LPC. And yes, I have been thinking that a nanny is probably the only way ahead once working too..and that it will take up my whole salary, but i guess its a short term (ish!) sacrifice. I think I may well try and have another baby soon-ish and then if i would still like more, wait til I have been working for a couple of years, although i will be in my late 30s by then probably..crumbs!
anyway, i guess you have exams coming up as i do, i am really quite terrified about them, so any words of reassurance about how darn easy GDL exams are would be welcome..?! How are the LPC exams?
Looking forward to maybe hearing from you anyway

i did this - 2 yrs pt PGDL, 2 year PT LPC then got Tc where they agreed for me to work 4 days lasted 6 months and walked!

fortunately i already had a cacareer to go back to and I wanst really enjoying the work. I had 3 dcs at the time, the littlest 18 mnoths when i started Tc

TBH a large part of my decision to walk was when on swapping seats my partner said i can tolerate you leaving in time for nursey pick up but others wont and I just tohught what do i do?? children already been in care all day then needed to organise another care package just so i could be seen to be staying late - no flexibility in seeing my strengths only that i had young children and i just thought im too old to play this game ( i was 34)
now 38 and with a further 2 dcs am self employed with a great job, never regretted stugying law but never regretted leaving that TC even though it was quite a prestigious one

Oh dear handmedownqueen, this does not sound terribly encouraging. Do you think it was mainly the firm you were at? Would you have carried on if there had been more flexibility? I must admit this does worry me. Having not worked much (apart from my law studies) for a few years I am concerned about how I will cope, although I can't bear the thought of not going back to work. Is your self-employment legally related at all?

i am using the law in working mainly for the police in healthcare.dont honestly think it was the firm - its just you have to be seen to be playnig the game and when you are older with kids you need to be able to say im outta here at a certain time without losing respect. you might be luckier than me or have more flexible childcare like a nanny or a grandparent so dont give up if it is your dream

There have been a couple of interesting articles in the Times recently about this. From my experience of barristers, it is possible to combine a career with a family but in general it is easiest if you qualfy and get some experience before you start a family. With 5-10 years experience you would have enough work coming in to be able to organise your week - e.g not work on Fridays unless in court, take off large parts of school holidays. It is extremely competitive and, in London, it is becoming difficult to get a pupillage with less than a First/very good mark in BVC/outstanding previous work experience. If you are thinking of criminal work I believe the CPS has relatively child/family friendly policies.

Hi Fairylights

I had 2 of my kids during my law degree, and my 3rd just after i finished law school. Then I had a year off and began my training contract when my youngest was 1.

It has been totally brilliant.

I chose to work at a legal aid firm with explicitly family friendly policies (they encouraged people to go home at 5.30 as they wanted well rounded happy people, not stressed out computer zombies). I was able to drop the older kids to school every daya dn younger one to nursery, arriving at around 9.45am. I'd work through lunch becasue I liked my work and wanted to get it done - there was NO pressure to do this though. I'd leave at 5.30 - using a combo of grandparents, dh, after school club until then, and be home with the whole lot of them by 6.30. They were cool about me going to assemblies, kids being sick, and inset days. I worked at home when I needed to and was flexible when I could be. It worked well.

And then I got greedy, I left and went and worked somewhere else with much better pay, much greater pressure to work long hours and have subsequently been stressed out dealing with my work/life balance ever since!

the message I suppose is choose the firm VERY carefully - the best way is to speak to people you already know and trust within a given firm, and get them to give you honest answers. And to be totally frank, unless you have a nanny / au pair, I wouldn't touch the corporates with a barge pole - a magic circle partner once explained to me that 'the pay is so high that you can employ someone else to look after your kids round the clock so you don't have to'. Not really why I had my kids though!

good luck. And enjoy the student bit - I loved it!

PSCMUM is right choose your firm vv carefully.

WE have assistant solicitors that use nursery and I did as well many years ago but for most families the only way that works is if you share drop offs and pick ups with DH. He use to do the morning and I was at my desk for 7.30am amd I would leave at 5.45 to get to Nusery for 6 and he would work into the night. Very hard as we both did the childcare on our own at either ends of the day.

Oh and please do not be fooled. Nannies earn considerably more than trainee solicitors..........you will not break even for a good while. I reckon you need to earn about £35k a year to cover a nanny.

Dont let me put you off but just be realistic about what is expected.

Good luck!

I'm a barrister and have just gone back to work f/t after my first DC, but I'm in charge of pupillage in Chambers so maybe I can tell you what we would say about someone who has kids?

To us, it would make absolutely no difference. We pride ourselves on being completely great at making sure that pupils don't work too late or weekends. We want to get the best out of people without flogging them to death. If we knew you had kids and were a pupil with us, we'd accommodate all reasonable requests for flexibility. Basically, if you're good enough, we want you and we'll do whatever it takes to keep you!

In practice, ie once you've started working, I actually think that being a barrister is a great job for flexibility, I suppose it depends on the type of law you do though. Immigration (Claimant) work can be quite short notice and urgent, but if sols have your mobile number I can't see why they can't call at home/while you're on the train. No one has batted an eyelid at the fact that I insist on going home at 5pm every day since I went back to work... I love it.

Feel free to ask anything else!

It is really interesting to read everyone's comments. PSCMUM great to hear such a positive story.
I have been told by trainees at the firm I'm going to work for that the hours are very reasonable and that you are not expected to work more than 15 mins or so past official going home time. So I hope it will be manageable. This is why I chose a local firm (was offered interviews with firms in London but knew that would be totally unrealistic for me). Also it is close to my DDs school so will be able to drop them off before I go to work.
Which specialisms are best in terms of combining work with family life? I have been thinking of Private Clients but would welcome anyone's thoughts. How do you cope with school holidays?
Thanks so much for all the info, it is really helpful.

thanks once again everyone, and interesting to hear very different experiences!
Thank you Holly29 and PSCMUM for the encouraging stories and also for the experiences of everyone else..
I do not intend AT ALL to go near any London firms and would very much like to start off in the legal aid type situation that PSCMUM describes, although with the changes in LSC funding etc do those type of places really exist any more do you think? Our local (great) law centre just got closed because they lost out on the funding bid to an organization that don't have a legal background!
I had assumed really that I would have to spend all my salary during TC on employing a nanny, but I hadn't thought about nannies earning possibly MORE than i will to start with.. hmm...
anyway, thanks so much for your contributions and any more are v welcome!