Boss has terminated our employment... Advice needed

[Jeany1967]

Hello there,

Bit of back story. My husband and I have worked together looking after a family, their home, gardens and their pets in Cheshire. We've worked for them for the last 15 years (with a 4 year gap in the middle when we had our children).

It's become evident that my husband's role is becoming more redundant (they don't need him as much as they used to). They are now saying that their "family needs" have changed in terms of the help that they need and that they are terminating our employment. They have given us 4 months notice so we're not out on our ear (we have accommodation with the job) but if we find a role before that they will need at least 4 weeks notice from us, which of course we understand.

My question is - are they not essentially making us redundant? Should we be just accepting this or asking for some sort of redundancy pay? It's not through any fault of ours. They employed us to do a job, which we've done but because their needs have changed we're now unemployed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you!

Are you expected to actually work until August or are you finishing work before then and that's just when you have to leave the house by? If you are expected to work then no the pay between now and august does not count towards a redundancy payoff.

You are also entitled to extra pay if you haven't had the opportunity to take your full entitlement of paid annual leave before the termination date.

Yes it should imo be a redundancy on offer here and also the fact it's your home and job them asking for 4 weeks if you choose to leave earlier feels harsh and an not something I would agree to

It’s contradictory that they no longer need you but need 4 weeks notice if you choose to leave earlier…

When was the break op, when did you return? How much notice do they legally need to give you?

you get this from the time you started again.

“You'll get: half a week's pay for each full year you were under 22. one week's pay for each full year you were 22 or older, but under 41. one and half week's pay for each full year you were 41 or older”

so if for example you’ve worked for the last 7 years, and are late forties, you’d be entitled to 11 weeks. As such if your contract says 1 months notice, then by giving you 3 as lieu of redundancy they are covered. They can simply change it to one month notice or whatever is in the contract. And pay you 11 weeks wages, but you loose the house benefit/

id be very cautious.

Oh shit, sorry it’s only 3 years? Then you’re entitled to about 4 or 5 weeks redundancy. What is the contractual notice period?

Op is the 4 weeks notice your side as that’s the contract?

A few things are jumping out here!

1 - you say your husbands role has diminished, but has yours? If not, and/or if they’re intending to take on someone else to do the job, that could be an unfair dismissal as it wouldn’t be a redundancy situation.

2 - you have technically been unfairly dismissed anyway as no fair procedure was followed… but if BOTH jobs are no longer required then it’s probably not worth pursuing.

3 - under what terms are you living in the house? Do you have a service occupancy or tenancy agreement? The former terminates automatically at the end of employment, the latter does not.

Your DH is entitled to redundancy pay. You would be too if your role is redundant, but not if you’ve been unfairly dismissed. Worth waiting until less than 4 weeks until termination and then pointing out you’re entitled to redundancy pay and outstanding holiday pay…

What is the notice period in your contract?

https://www.gov.uk/redundancy-your-rights/redundancy-pay#:~:text=You'll%20normally%20be%20entitled,or%20older%2C%20but%20under%2041

I think you’re jumping here, you need to ask about the employment contract and if it is joint, which from the terms she uses, it appears it will be, as such, it will not be unfair dismissal.

there is too much info missing here, namely in terms of the employment contract.

I’m actually not aware if English law permits an employment contract to be made as one document with two employees (mainly because I suspect it would likely be legally deficient just by virtue of the wording of S1 ERA 1996).

It is possible of course to have two separate contracts conditional upon the employment of the other… but if the DHs employment was terminated on redundancy grounds, OP would be (likely) terminated on either SOSR or redundancy grounds - both of which require consultation to be procedurally fair. In OPs case I’d also expect at least an offer to retain her work if it was needed (as only one set of work has diminished from what OP says) along with consultation to make it a fair process.

Even an SOSR dismissal in this case could potentially be unfair - unless the employer no longer wishes to use the property for a service occupancy. But if they are intending to use it as a SO going forward but for one person, and the OPs job still exists, then I do think there is a case for her to argue!

Lots of ifs and buts there, and surely you must know they can simply say they don’t intend to replace or use the cottage and thay they can change their minds and do so six months later?

Thank you all for your replies.

This job is different to most jobs. Myself and my husband were taken on as a couple to manage their home for them. He has his roles and I have mine. Essentially, their needs as a family have changed and the roles that my husband does are no longer needed, whereas mine still are (and they essentially need 2 of me).

We live together with our children in accommodation provided by them on site. We are employed by them as a couple and it states in our contract that if one half of us gave notice, the other half would have to also as they will need to replace us with another couple.

When we agreed to come back and work for them my days were Monday - Friday (because of the children), husband was Thursday - Monday. When they are in residence (mainly weekends) they are now saying that they don't need my husband but they want me to work (to help the other lady that normally works with my husband at the weekends). I don't want to work weekends for obvious reasons so they are essentially saying that we can't carry on. Because their needs have changed and we can't accommodate them. They will employ another couple going forward because the lady part of the couple will happily work weekends with the other housekeeper. (Because the job will be advertised as a weekend role).

As I said, all very complicated!

I suppose my gripe is that if we've worked so hard for them over the years and they are essentially making this decision, it would be nice of them to offer us a little compensation.
Redundancy probably isn't an option as they will need to re-employ another couple once we leave.

Our notice period is 4 weeks

By august you will have been back in their employ for more than 3 years.

In addition to your notice you are each entitled to statutory redundancy pay based on 3 years employment. It's not a lot but it's tax and NI free and your right.

They also have to legally evict you from the property unless you are willing to go voluntarily.

If they are not making you redundant then they are unfairly dismissing you which is illegal.

You need to get onto ACAS

You definitely need advice as they have need to change the T&Cs of your role which you have termed down. So essentially your current role Mon- thurs has ceased to exist as they need 'same job title' Thurs - Mon. However, your husbands role has not ceased to exist.
Your housing will depend if you have an occupancy clause in your contract ie you can only occupy the property while you are employed and you signed to acknowledge that you were not creating tenancy.
It's worth checking your contents insurance to see if you have family legal advice.

As your notice period is 4 weeks but they are giving you 4 months I would be very cautious in rocking the boat unless you secure employment and housing very quickly (in which case asking for 3 weeks redundancy is within statutory rights. Yes strictly speaking they should be paying the redundancy but being homeless and jobless to prove a point doesn't seem sensible.

On the other side of things I'm not actually convinced your contract is legal to start with, making your employment contingent on other person isn't something I thought you could do. I've employed a husband and wife team and I was advised they had to have completely separate contracts and the tied accommodation had to be linked to only one of them to be legal

@mitogoshi Even if they give OP 4 weeks conteactual notice for the termination of employment the same rules for eviction from their home apply as for any shorthold tenancy ie it takes months and cannot legally be done without a court order. They would not be homeless.

This is not correct, the role has changed due to the needs of the employer, the op is declining the change, it is not unfair dismissal

it could be argued redundancy, but as she’s only entitled to four weeks notice, and they are giving four months, and she’s only been there on a rolling less than 3 years she’s on very rocky ground,

she can say she wants the months redundancy pay, sure, but they are within rights to apply the contract ie 4 weeks and you’re out, here is a months pay, and they don’t wish that.

and the previous poster isn’t giving the whole story on eviction, because if employment is terminated then they are within their rights to charge rent, if they don’t leave and are no longer employed . They can go down the squatting formal eviction route but I doubt they wish to do that.

it becomes very very complex.

my personal view is the employer is being generous with 4 months, it is significantly more than they are entitled to.

Because their needs have changed and we can't accommodate them.

Sadly that's the crux. They need your job title at the weekend and you don't want to work the weekend, so you can no longer meet their needs.

Regardless, as I said yesterday, they're giving you four months notice. They only need to give you four weeks, and statutory redundancy is four weeks. Best case, you'd get eight weeks pay, and they've offered you sixteen.

I can see why you're upset and feel let down, but that's the situation as it currently stands. They've offered you a lot more than you are legally entitled to.

They are likely to dispute the redundancy, too. They don't want to let you go; they want you to work weekends. If that doesn't work for you, it's not redundancy. Your role isn't gone, it's just changed, and you don't want to work it. Unfortunate but not unfair.