Working hours and being a manager

[CeciC]

I had a meeting with my line manager today, and now I now that I will never be a manager working the hours that I work.
I work F//t but I work 7am - 2:30 pm. and I work the rest of the hours from home, around 2 hours per week.
I feel quite down knowing this, even thought I always had this feeling that my hours might be a problem to "move up" the career ladder.
Is it that difficult to be a manager and not being in the office the same working hours that your staff?
Am I being a "dreamer" and not really if you want to be a manager you can't work p/t or flexitime.
Please, any advice very welcome

I run an office and my boss allowed me to return 3 days per week after I had my child if I agreed to increase to a 4th day in the future which I did after a year. I now work Mon - Thur 9 - 5 with the odd hour or 2 over if needed.
Suited me fine and Ihave a 2 and half year old toddler.
Speak to your boss and ask them what you have to do to move up? Be stright and to the point without being arsey and hopefully they will see thats what you want - to be a working mother.
Hope that helps.

I think it probably will depend what kind of industry you work in and what their attitude is. If it's a big company or public sector, you have slightly more chance you of winning such a case IMHO. I think you would have to make a case based on the tasks involved and how you would cover them on those hours; how you would actively manage others and crises while away from the office (could you still be contactable for example? could you have emergency childcare for real crises?) and you would also have to think up front about dealing with staff resentment: how would you motivate others to work till 5-6 if you're not?

But large employers and public sector ones in particular are likely to have a family friendly policy and may even want to help women in your position move up to management. I suspect the onus will be on you to show how you can do it. You may need to go above your line manager, via the HR office if you have one?

If you can do a good job in the hours you work then it should not stop you advancing especially if you are available at home. We have all sorts of modern technology to help you stay in touch.

At my last job I worked 7.45 - 3.15 to coincide with my son's school hours despite the fact that I worked in an office and I was the manager. Half of the company worked 8.00-4.00 and the rest 9.00-5.00 so I was not always there but they knew they could contact me and I worked damned hard to ensure they never felt they were losing out.

If they cannot accommodate you and you know that you are an asset to any company then look for someone who can. Good Luck.

Thanks THM1 for your message.
Unfortunately my boss know that I don't want to stay forever in the possition I am now. I am a "trainee accountant". Well I don't care much for "titles" but this is what if you look the company's phone directory.
I the coversation, my boss told me very clear, that the reason why she didn't offer a management possition last year was because of the hours I work as she thinks is unfair for the staff I would manage, as I wouldn't be in the office the same hours they are, and if something comes up, I should be there to deal with it. My coment to that, was, then, a manager shouldn't go on holidays as if something comes up, he/she won't be there to deal with it. And of course managers have holidays and if something comes up, the staff would deal with it if they can or they would let another manager deal with it.
I like to know that there are managers out there that don't work f/t.

Monkeybird, I work in accounts in a manufacturing company. Most of the managers, directors and staff for that matter, have been with the company for over 20 years, My manager had her 25 year award 3 years ago. So mostly is an "old school" of thinking.
I said to my manager about being contactable, I live around 30 minutes from my work, and I have a childminder which is wonderfull and very accommodating if I need childcare for my DDs. Well this week, I have increase my hours due to staff shortage, noone ask me to do it, I decided that I should work longer to hours to cover some jobs that need to be done. I have never taken any leave without living things tidy, and my boss knows that when I go to her because I have a "problem" I usually give her the solution at the same time.
I think, I have a very difficutl case to win, as when my boss has an idea in her head, it is very difficult to change her mind

Purpleparrot,
Yes, probably I will move to another job, but when my youngest starts school, as I might do temping/contract work.
I being told always that I am very valuable, and my boss is being very accommodating with my hours, I have changed my working hours twice since coming back form ML (2 1/2 years ago).

I work 3 days a week, 7am-4pm Mon to Wed.

I maanage various teams who's shifts vary from 5 am - 2 pm, and 9am-6pm.

I work in retail so some members of my team will be at work 7 days a week IYSWIM.

It's hard work and requires lots of planning but it certainly can be done, and it works very well for everyone.

I'm lucky to have an open minded employer who values experience, dedication and good results, over the hours I work.

Hi Jojay,
I glad to hear that it can be done, but it's so difficult to change peoples views an ideas on how work has to be done!! And my manager is very supportive in some ways, but has very clear ideas of what a manager shoud do (may be not the same ideas that I would have ). For certain if another position comes available I will put my name foward, and let see if I have a change to prove myself. But I don't know when that is going to happen, as the company I work for is not very big.

Sorry for not answering to your message until today. But being at work all day and very, very busy

would you have a deputy or assistant manager? that's how i manage it. i work 28 hours a week, as does my deputy, but he covers the hours i'm not there and we overlap enough to make sure we're doing things the same way. i'm in retail though where, ime, it's fairly easy to work part time as a manager. i work evenings too, makes things even easier.

Hi ruddynorah,
At the moment, the manager works the same hours that the rest of the team. So there isn't a deputy manager or supervisor.
When I was talking with my manager, I did mention, that for that to happen may be changes should happen, but of course, as that is quite a remote possibility, as I don't think anyone is thinking of moving jobs right now, we didn't talk about which changes should happen. I think, of having a deputy manager would be one solution.

It depends. I am in education, and in my school we have a few middle managers who work a 4 day week and tbh, it has a lot of disadvantages. The pupils are in school 5 days a week, and the pace is so fast in school life, issues arise continually which can't always be put off until the next time the manager is in work, and tbh a lot of situations need to be dealt with face to face - not over the phone. And tbh, if you choose to work P/T, how happy/available would you be to have someone ring you anyway in your time off? Surely the point of being P/T is that you DON'T want to be working full time!
I suspect (sounding rather cynical here but I honestly think its true) the goverors at my school allowed these appointments as a money saving measure (rather than really being family friendly). The knock on effects are various - problems that crop up which should be referred to a Head of Dept or Head of Year either have to go on the back burner, or be picked up by other member of staff. That's fine in an unexpected situation (eg if a manager is off sick) but not as a permanent state of affairs. There are also enormous timetabling problems that arise eg classes have to be split between two teachers if a member of staff is P/T which isnt fair on the kids or other staff. Some one mentioned in an earlier post that a deputy manager can pick up some things - maybe that works in some jobs, but tbh, a deputy manager is a different role isnt it? - the deputy Head of Dept in a school has clearly defined areas of responsibility (which would include stepping up to managing if Head is off sick etc) but NOT filling in because the Head of Dept is a P/T worker.
I realise this may all sound a bit negative, and maybe in other walks of life, a P/T management post is achieveable, but it definitely doesnt seem to work in schools.I just think it's very very hard to find a way of it working without it impacting negatively on other staff, and that obviously shouldnt happen.

Hi alfiesbabe,
I think you are correct that in some work enviroments is not always possible. In an accounts office like the one I work, I think it would be possible. And I work Full time, and that shouldn't change. The only issue for my managaer, is that I work from 7 in the morning till 2:30 in the afternoon, so I wouldn't be in the office for 2 hours, as "normal" hours in my office are 8:30 am till 4:30 pm.

I am a manager in a firm of accountants, I work 20 hours a week (8am - 1pm for 4 days). I manage staff, have a portfolio of clients. Not quite the same but I am a perfectly good part-time manager.

I work for a global company, which has a large mobile workforce - people don't have designated desks for example, and work in whichever office they have a meeting in, or from home.

Managers have to manage people they don't see for weeks or even months, some of whom work in different time zones - not uncommon for people to work for managers based in the US for example. It is a big cultural change, but it can work, very well.

It may depend on the level of people that you're managing - if they're self sufficient on the whole, then you shouldn't need to be available all of the time. After all I imagine they manage when managers are off sick, on holiday, on education, or even in a meeting. I'm a manager working flexible hours and I have a team leader as a first point of contact if anything crops up when I'm not around.

Have you got someone you could designate as a "team leader", for which being your deputy might be a good development opportunity?

CeciC, agree with Surr that it depends on how independent and how much initiative your employees are as well as the nature of the work.

You seem to think this arrangement could work and from your description, you are only out-of-sync for 2 hours. Can you make yourself contact by phone/email over those 2 hours for unexpected things that crop out?

I would put in a flexible working application anyway and try to get the company to agree to a trial period or at least explain in writing why they don't think it will work. Is there a precedent set in another part of the company?

If that fails, there are other bigger sticks to beat the company with (ie appeal, grievance, employment tribunal) if you have the appetite for that.

Thank you for your messages,
Surr3 and blueshoes, I told exactly that to my manager, about then a manager couldn't go on holidays, because if something comes up, what do we do? Of course my manager couldn't reply to that, or at least she didn't say anything.
At the moment there isn't a vacancy. That was just my manager telling me why she didn't offer me a position of Commercial accountant when it come available last year.
There are other managers that work from home some days a week, or finishing early in the afternoon. I think the issue here is that my manager, the finance director, wouldn't like one of "her" managers working different hours.

I think the point about holidays and time off sick isn't really relevant though. Everyone is entitled to their designated time off, and there will be systems in place to cover for this. Likewise with sickness - no one can help getting ill, and in this situation, a deputy or assistant would normally step up and cover, and if the illness os long term then other arrangements would be put in place. The issue here, is about whether a management job can be done part time as a permanent arrangement, without impacting negatively on colleagues.

CeciC, since there is a precedent in another part of the company (you must satisfy yourself that the managers there are doing an equivalent role as yourself with the same pressures and requirements), I suggest you involve HR who would be more clued up on the legal situation.

From your end, a flex working application would need to include a business case from you as to how you can satisfactorily cover your role flexibly. That includes having contigency plans for the 2 hours you are out of the office, urgent matters. The more flexible you are, the more likely the company can be flexible in return.

If that is rejected and the company can reject for "business reasons" without stating much more under the (essentially toothless) flex working regulations, the next step is to appeal under the regulations. And if that fails, to raise a grievance under your company's procedures. And once that is exhausted, to bring a claim for sexual discrimination or constructive dismissal in an employment tribunal.

Fully recognise you would not want to go so far. But this is the procedure and HR will know that.

I'm a manager though I don't actually 'manage' anybody as such. It's more a grade and seniority thing. I work part-time and partly from home. But more significantly my line manager also works quite a bit from home and he most definitely does manage a largish team. As long as you are contactable during certain hours.