watching stalking/harassment unfold

[JollyOpalPoster]

DH works at a university, I was also previously there for a number of years before 2021, so am familiar with the department. Their offices are quite big for postdocs, and during lockdown a new girl (X) started there. X's supervisor has a big research group and that's how she started being stalked by another postdoc Y. I don't know how it all started, but by the end of lockdowns when people started going back to the office it was already such an issue that DH knew about it. X complained to her supervisor who told Y to stop writing handwritten letters, and he just started sending emails.

Then Y's contract expires, he gets a postdoc in another city 3h away, yet travels back once a week for 'lunches with the group'. This goes on for about 2 years, in which time X gets a position in Europe and leaves. Meanwhile, the supervisor knows about all of this, the department admin people get forwarded emails Y now starts sending to my DH (and others) about X. Yet, Y is hired AGAIN by the supervisor just as X leaves for Europe.
I don't know whether X filed a formal complaint to HR about Y... I was in a bit of a similar but less wild situation at the same uni, I filed a complaint and the guy got a telling off from the School and I was also told that when he's looking for a job and wants an HR reference - they will say they have no comment about him, which means there's basically nothing good. So the fact Y got hired AGAIN is just shocking to me. I think X's ordeal with Y is like tenfold what I experienced...
Anyway, is there anything I can do? X comes back for work trips and Y just goes insane, I've seen the emails, it seems it's escalating... last one Y was 'filled with fury' that X didn't show up to a 1-1 meeting they supposedly arranged (although I'm a bit sceptical of the truth here). All emails get forwarded to School admin... Don't know why X hasn't done HR complaint about him, though I now think a restraining order is more appropriate... it might be cultural, like formal methods of complaint might backfire in country of origin. Y is British citizen, X is non-UK/non-EU but works in EU. I've seen emails where Y is basically threatening that 'his associates will give [X] a visit' (??). Idk if X forwards such stuff to admin, but anything DH receives I ask him to forward. They've even got a whatsapp group to document all of it, and X has expressed she's worried Y will come and k*ll her one day, in a non-joke way. Surely that's enough...?

I realise I'm not the one being harassed here but is there anything I can do? Filing HR complaint on X's behalf is possible but on the page it says no action will be taken if I'm anonymous. Uni has a security service, can I make them aware?

[allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld]

@JollyOpalPoster does y think x is doing better than him? does y fancy x? what is his actual problem with x. has x rejected y ?

[JollyOpalPoster]

@allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld

@JollyOpalPoster does y think x is doing better than him? does y fancy x? what is his actual problem with x. has x rejected y ?

Y is infatuated with X, probably got rejected since X had a live-in boyfriend all these years. But Y seems to just keep going, I heard he proposed to her (without ring). Stuff I've actually seen him write is like how he can 'protect her' against some sort of danger ??? it all honestly seems like a big case of delusion/mental health issues. he's like 15-20 years older than all of us

[justforthisnow]

Regardless of why Y is doing this (does it matter at this point?) X needs to formally raise this with the university, and include as much evidence as possible, emails, the existence of the group messages your husband is in which are watching this unfold and the frequency and pattern of the contact from Y.
I would also make police aware, and consider a non molestation order, based on the messages you've described.
No way should X attend a 1 to 1 meeting ever with this person.

[LordBummenbachsMagnificentBalls]

X should report to the police, as it could escalate. Either Y will get warned off or they will continue, in which case it will become a case of stalking.

[JollyOpalPoster]

to DH and others it's just email ramblings about anything to do with X- how she has hidden her location on social media or isn't replying, or like she's left something on her old desk "on purpose" and what's her new address so Y can return it 😝
then more sinister stuff about 'someone paying her a visit', claiming SHE has mental health issues that she's avoiding him. being filled with fury etc. and I haven't seen his emails to her even, this is all to my DH. He might be just looking for someone with a link to X to befriend and exploit

[justforthisnow]

If complaints can be filed on behalf of someone, would your DH and his colleagues consider making one to HR, non anonymously? The whatsapp group sounds vaguely bystander effect, and imagine if those messages end up being used in court as evidence in a murder trial, the perception would be if everyone knew, why didn't anyone report it?

[JollyOpalPoster]

@justforthisnow

If complaints can be filed on behalf of someone, would your DH and his colleagues consider making one to HR, non anonymously? The whatsapp group sounds vaguely bystander effect, and imagine if those messages end up being used in court as evidence in a murder trial, the perception would be if everyone knew, why didn't anyone report it?

yes exactly....
bystander..... they report to School admin, the girl most active with it said to me they're collecting a case, but like how much longer..? What needs to happen exactly? my personal case was dealt with swiftly and efficiently, same people in admin, so no idea wtf is going on here.

[Garlicking]

If this is happening in the UK, contact the National Stalking Helpline for advice. This guy sounds frightening.

[Cronchy]

Can’t your husband speak to the university, and say he has very real concerns about the behaviour of y. It is stalking and threatening behaviour and if it escalates and anything happens to x, the university will be to blame for not protecting x. He is flagging as he is also disturbed by the messages he receives about x and he does not want to be a bystander. And currently university systems are being used for illegal stalking and harassment behaviour.
surely just that in writing would panic the university as it’s a paper trail of staff raising concerns?
sorry if he’s already done that but I’m surprised that no one has spoken to y more formally and told them to stop?
I’d say it’s bigger than school admin though, he needs to speak to someone else.

if you don’t work there and you don’t know any of the people I don’t think you can do much.

[JollyOpalPoster]

@Cronchy

Can’t your husband speak to the university, and say he has very real concerns about the behaviour of y. It is stalking and threatening behaviour and if it escalates and anything happens to x, the university will be to blame for not protecting x. He is flagging as he is also disturbed by the messages he receives about x and he does not want to be a bystander. And currently university systems are being used for illegal stalking and harassment behaviour.
surely just that in writing would panic the university as it’s a paper trail of staff raising concerns?
sorry if he’s already done that but I’m surprised that no one has spoken to y more formally and told them to stop?
I’d say it’s bigger than school admin though, he needs to speak to someone else.

if you don’t work there and you don’t know any of the people I don’t think you can do much.

hey thank you, that's useful, I will let him know and I'll also write the girl who's most active in complaining to admin..
yeah, I don't work there currently but I did before so know many of the academics/staff... but yes I'm not the one receiving any emails from Y and haven't worked there once the situation started being so obvious that others knew...

[Cronchy]

I think if you got through to someone that realised this is actually an issue, it would make your husband look bad because he’s telling you about it enough that you’ve gotten worried, but not reporting it like he should be. I assume there’s still some safeguarding policies at universities as with schools, albeit to a lesser extent, but for many people as it operates as a work place, surely there is a duty to report harassment and also to report illegal activity that is taking place with university systems and on university property?
obviously your dh just needs to be careful this scary behaviour doesn’t backfire on to him too though

[JollyOpalPoster]

@Cronchy

I think if you got through to someone that realised this is actually an issue, it would make your husband look bad because he’s telling you about it enough that you’ve gotten worried, but not reporting it like he should be. I assume there’s still some safeguarding policies at universities as with schools, albeit to a lesser extent, but for many people as it operates as a work place, surely there is a duty to report harassment and also to report illegal activity that is taking place with university systems and on university property?
obviously your dh just needs to be careful this scary behaviour doesn’t backfire on to him too though

Thank you, I've tried looking for the HR complaint form I filled out back in my day but can't find it now, seems like it's writing to the head of department and faculty HR... I obviously don't want for it to backfire on DH... euh.... he doesn't reply to any Y's emails, he's in a different research group so doesn't interact much really except this.
if admin get forwarded multiple emails, surely it's their responsibility to escalate it also

[JollyOpalPoster]

I could just say I'm not formally associated with the uni but I am socially acquainted with the group of people (which is true), so like I'm not throwing DH under the bus...
I remember a few months ago DH and I walking home about 7-8pm (dark already) and saw Y sitting outside the department on his own on a bench, dunno waiting or just chilling in crisp December air. I think X wasn't even in the UK but still sinister, who knows who else he's stalking

[Janetsmug]

I agree with how I think you're feeling OP, that DH is being too passive, along with everyone else who knows about this and has the ability to report. I completely get that you personally are in a difficult position without that ability so I think your only option is to push DH to do it.

The points raised by PP's about how his actions (or lack thereof) could be viewed in retrospect and his duty to properly report/escalate are good ones to back up your argument but I'm afraid it is an argument you're probably going to have to have more than once.

From his perspective no one else is/has been brave enough to stick their head above the parapet and make the level of fuss this situation undoubtedly warrants and so he is scared to be 'the one'. I could understand that (to a degree) in someone I loved so would support them to gather the courage, and that's what I would do in your shoes. Use the points made in the thread to bring home the gravity of this situation to him and hopefully galvanise him into action.

[unsync]

X should report it to the Police and the University, especially if Y is escalating.

[JollyOpalPoster]

omg it's worse than I thought.. just spoke with someone from that friend group, asked if anybody at all complained to hr/wider uni. got told - no, they don't know who else apart from admin (after me literally sending them a link to faculty hr). then come the shocking bits

1. admin have been efficient in the past, during covid, Y got suspended for harassing other women
2. supervisor is some big-ass professor with big-ass funding, and 'pushed' for Y's reinstatement after his suspension. which doesn't look good for him or the uni, i'm a bit dumbfounded why he got him back. Y doesn't seem any more exceptional than any of the other, like, 10 postdocs in the group. there's a lot of competition in this field also, not like they're short of people... Mr Professor and Y are in the same age group, that might be a bonding factor (I also heard previously that Y and Mr Professor get on well), but still, bloody hell......
3. X has only ever complained to Mr Professor, not even admin. I can now imagine how he might have told her to shush.

literally what.thefuck.

[allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld]

@JollyOpalPoster seriously think that x needs to complain to police now! whichever country she is in, because she will be afraid to return to uk! HR needs to be investigated. perhaps the dean of the university needs to be informed of all these goings on!! should never matter who is friends with y in HR or in the school! they should all be investigated for negligence! Can you contact X?

[JollyOpalPoster]

@allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld

@JollyOpalPoster seriously think that x needs to complain to police now! whichever country she is in, because she will be afraid to return to uk! HR needs to be investigated. perhaps the dean of the university needs to be informed of all these goings on!! should never matter who is friends with y in HR or in the school! they should all be investigated for negligence! Can you contact X?

Edited

yeah I can contact X, several people previously told her (me included, when she was in UK) to contact police. She just shrugged then. I don't know the source of her inaction, in whatsapp messages she seems to tell others to contact a court/police if she goes missing or something, but doesn't do anything herself. Is it denial of the situation? There's only so much others can do. it's like a block... she doesn't work for Mr Professor now, so I'd go right ahead if I were her, honestly.... I don't know.

[allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld]

@JollyOpalPoster she cannot really afford to hang about. she HAS to contact the police. that Y sounds like he is on the verge of doing something really serious and i would be concerned for her safety.

[JollyOpalPoster]

@allthemiddlechildrenoftheworld

@JollyOpalPoster she cannot really afford to hang about. she HAS to contact the police. that Y sounds like he is on the verge of doing something really serious and i would be concerned for her safety.

yeah I agree... I did think a bit about contacting uni security service, this could be classed as crime prevention... just explain the situation.
the majority is up to X, I'm a bit wary of starting to convince her to contact police, I'd be the one bothering/potentially triggering her. but she hasn't even spoken to admin... I just don't know where the line is, it must not bother her enough (or paralyse her too much) to contact anyone with authority... :(

[parietal]

I read this earlier but only had the chance to reply now. I work at a university and have served on HR panels investigating harassment & other disciplinary issues.

Am I right that Y is currently employed by the local university but X is employed elsewhere and comes back to the area for visits?

if X and Y were employed by the same university, then X should take this directly to HR and get them to investigate. Y should be suspended immediately and the investigation would decide what should happen.

But if X does not work at the university, then the uni does not have a particular duty of care to her and may not do much. So going to the university will just activate a academic gossip network without much resolution.

the police is a much better option.

Can you share links to https://www.paladinservice.co.uk/ and to the https://www.suzylamplugh.org/ with X? She needs to recognize that this is stalking and to realize how dangerous it really is.

then when she is ready, support her to take it to the police with as much evidence as possible. She should look to get a restraining order against Y so that he cannot approach or contact her.

Do they both go to the same scientific conferences / events? most conferences these days have a code-of-conduct where he could be banned from the event for harassing her, and again she can make use of that to keep safe.

[DuckyDaffodil]

My best and oldest friend was murdered by a man who stalked her 14 years ago. Report it. Report it over and over again, to anyone and everyone who might listen. Keep on reporting it until that man is stopped.

[shearwater2]

If I were a work associate of his I'd be asking him what the fuck he thought he was doing to this woman and do everything I can to get him out of there and away from her. I'd find it hard not to be very, very angry with him and to tell him to pick on me instead and see how that goes for him.

[JollyOpalPoster]

@DuckyDaffodil

My best and oldest friend was murdered by a man who stalked her 14 years ago. Report it. Report it over and over again, to anyone and everyone who might listen. Keep on reporting it until that man is stopped.

That's so awful, I'm sorry to hear it :((((
X has finally forwarded admin the latest rambling mess from Y, there's actually a threat of physical harm.....
I rang up the National stalking helpline, they basically told me she needs to ring them.. they explained also how he might have been hired back again if there wasn't enough evidence against him at the time.
after DH showed me the email with threats, I rang up uni security but they also said X needs to call them :/ threats weren't directed at her exactly, more general to whoever is responsible for her 'going missing', so could be anyone?? fuck knows what's in the dude's head
I think that's all I can do for now sadly...

[JollyOpalPoster]

@parietal
thanks, that's useful.
Y is employed by the uni, X is no longer employed.
yes for the conferences, I'm aware of at least one DH went to where X and Y both were, but DH said Y behaved fine.
Y seems to be able to filter himself when he's emailing different people... most unhinged with X, then follows DH and another girl (they only had one brief work interaction previously like a year ago but enough apparently to be Y's besties).
Y's latest email to X had mention of physical harm, so that got forwarded. the threat was directed vaguely towards everyone who's been keeping X away from him, but no specific names. Anyway, I rang uni security (I assumed this was crime prevention) because Y could see literally anyone (DH, me even socially) and decide one of us is to blame? dude's mental. anyway, security said X should call them since she's the one being stalked.. didn't even let me speak really.