Redundancy payment conundrum

[Theworldismadness]

I am potentially getting made redundant. I have an interview for a job outside my organisation tomorrow. If I get it, can I withdraw from the ring fenced internal interview and get made redundant so I can get redundancy payment and still take the external job? Or is this dodgy/fraud?

This has been an incredibly stressful situation so I feel walking away with nothing is unfair but at the same time it's unfair to the organisation if I've found something as I'm not technically redundant. I'm not sure what to do at this stage.

There's no voluntary redundancy on offer so it would only be normal redundancy to consider.

Thanks for any thoughts or experiences of this.

Depends on the timing. If you get the new job and tell your current employer that you're leaving, they'll probably take that as you resigning and therefore not being made redundant.

If they're nice there might be an option to offer you voluntary redundancy.

They aren't offering voluntary redundancy unfortunately. Timing wise, I could work up until the redundancy date and not tell them about the new job (then start new job the day after) but that's what I'm torn about as I don't know if it's really dodgy and I'm an honest person.

Will you need a reference from current position? Agree it is all about timing. Hope it works out for you.

FWIW, I don't think it is dodgy. My DH was recently made redundant with a lot of other people and immediately put on Garden Leave. They were happy for people to interview whilst on Garden Leave, but they couldn't start a new job until the old one officially ended.

What happens if you accept new job, with plan to start after the redundancy date, and then get offered a role at current job? Then you would be unavailable to start the new job.

Yes I'd need a reference

But I wouldn't be offered job at current org if I withdrew from the ring fenced interview.

i don't think it's sneaky at all to be looking around if there are redundancies. It is what i did.

I would play your cards close to your chest - if you get offered the other job, you can still turn it down if your current place want to keep you (either same job as now or good role that you want) Likewise, if your current place offer you redundancy (money i assume?) if it is worth it, why not? you have earned that and it shouldn't be cut just because you have done the best thing for you and found another job.

But as always: don't blab to either employer about what you're doing.

I'm not sure I understand your concerns about fraud.

There's no fraud. You're in charge of who you work for and you can interview for anyone you like, hand notice in and leave for a new job at any time you like.

The only question is whether you'd still be eligible for redundancy or not which really only your organisation can answer.

At my company, if someone was simply at risk of redundancy and then left for a new job, you've just resigned. After you're officially told you're being made redundant and your package and leaving date, you can leave at any time if you have a new job and still get the redundancy payout.

part of any redundancy should include a reference, and that should not be affected at all by the timing of when you leave, as long as you keep to the redundancy timings/conditions.

If a company wants you, they should be prepared to wait until the date you can start.

Please don't think, OP, that you are in any way cheating your current company. You have a contract with them, which they are trying to break in a reasonable way. It is reasonable of you to look out for yourself, in the same way your company is reasonable to look out for itself.

Always act in your own best interest, but keep to all contracts you have signed. Don't make any verbal agreements that you are not prepared to back up in writing.

(for me it was really worth taking the redundancy money and not doing anything to endanger that because it was a very good deal and I'd been there 20+ years. For someone who had been there a few years, I'd have said go for the best job you can and sod the few thousand)

also to be clear: i think you are completely above board if you take the redundancy package (get it all signed off and secure) and then take another job. Your current company can't mind about that at all.
They also can't mind if you do use the time between now and getting a redundancy signed off working and also looking for a new job.

the only thing you, as an employee, need to worry about is not breaking any contracts. Which you won't be by looking for a new job and also taking redundancy.

What you could also do if you think this isn't the last wave of redundancies is look for a new job anyway. see what's out there that looks more stable.

My question about the reference was related to timing, not inferring that you were acting badly and might risk a good reference.

I was suggesting that you don't want to accept a position and have a reference requested before the redundancy situation is clear, in case it jeopardises your eligibility for the payment.

So isn't that effectively voluntary redundancy? If you don't apply, you will be made redundant, guaranteed?
If this is true, go ahead with your plan. It's looking after your interests.
Good on you if you can get the timings to line up. I know someone who managed to get voluntary redundancy that fitted with their plans to move.
I got offered a job (without interview) so had to resign.
DH resigned before redundancies were announced - but the writing was on the wall, and it meant he had a job lined up while others were scrabbling for roles.

I suppose the worst that happens is I just don't get the payment right? Which I won't get anyway if I resign (if I get this job). So no worse off I guess.

True. I suppose it's voluntary redundancy in a different way.

I don't think it's dodgy as such, but be aware that the redundancy settlement agreement may have a restrictive clause in it where you undertake not to move to a competitor within, say, 6 months, and if so you may forfeit the redundancy settlement if you take up the new role immediately. You may be able to get sight of your organisation's standard settlement agreement, but in my own experience they were very cagey about that until the end of the process.

They'd be having a laugh if that was the case. I'm getting less than £3000 and I can't live for 6 months off that.

given the low payment - all you need to do is balance what you want to do with what is realistic.

my payment was worth around 2 years of my salary, so i had to box clever. With this? i would make sure my job was secure - or get a new one.

IIRC those restrictive clauses are not enforceable in law (or is that only in Europe?)

But if you refuse to take part in the process, then you are resigning effectively. They aren't offering voluntary redundancy.

You could take your chances, don't tell them about the new job and hope that you aren't successful as part of the ring fenced selection. But it's risky, someone else might resign in which case you'd be mapped into the role. Not worth it in my opinion, just resign and move on.

Likewise, if your current place offer you redundancy (money i assume?) if it is worth it, why not? you have earned that and it shouldn't be cut just because you have done the best thing for you and found another job.

Nobody "earns" redundancy money. The payment is compensation for loss of income.

I don't disagree that people should do what they need to do in their own interests. But for those who think it isn't dodgy, it is not only dodgy but it is also a form of fraud.

If you are offered /take another job outside of the statutory notice period (not the contractual period if they are different) then in law you are not entitled to any redundancy money. Your legal entitlement to redundancy money only starts at the statutory notice date, at which point things like counter notice etc kick in. That doesn't mean that the employer won't be more flexible - some will and some won't. But if you take redundancy money when you already have another job in the bag, even if the new job starts after the redundancy, then if you have withheld that information from the employer they can come after you for up to 6 years in England and Wales for all the money back.

Most people get away with it. But not everybody does, and that could be 6 years of looking over your shoulder.

It's up to you what your morals or conscience tell you to do, but don't be fooled by people telling you that it's ok - it isn't legal.

Nobody "earns" redundancy money. The payment is compensation for loss of income.

you "earn" it by having been loyal to a company over several years/decades. Which is why people who have been there longer get more money. It also covers the fact that they may be older and thus face more problems getting a new job.

It is daft to think that it isn't a perk of your job in the same way bonuses etc are.

That's useful to know and the sort of stuff I was wondering about. Where did you find this legal stuff as I'd like to read more.

It depends on timing and process.

When they announce that you are officially at risk of redundancy they should also tell you what your options are.

These will be:

• reallocation to a suitable role that they have determined is a near match to your existing role
• apply for a reduced number of the same role (ring fenced interview)
• apply for other positions in the company
• accept redundancy

If they are not able to just reallocate you to another role then you are in a position to say that you have decided you will not be applying for the ring fenced positions and will instead accept redundancy at the end of the consultation period.

There are some conditions around this, even if they reallocate you there should be a 4 week period after tarting the role for you and them to assess suitability. Also until the consultation period comes to an end the company could still decide to cancel the redundancy process (unlikely but possible) because the purpose of the consultation is to garner views on alternative measures they could take to achieve their overall goal besides redundancy.

It's not fraud to accept redundancy knowing that you have another role to go into.

I was in a similar situation last year. As soon as I learned that my job was "at risk" I started applying for external roles. I interviewed and got offered another job at a different company quite quickly, while the redundancy consultation period was still underway.

At my next redundancy meeting, I told HR I didn't want to interview for any other internal roles and that I was happy to accept the redundancy. Therefore it sped up the process for me, and my employment ended shortly after. I then started at the new job.

I think you can make this work in your favour and still get the redundancy. You accepting it and pulling out of the internal interview is a good thing for them - it's one less person to have to worry about. I can't imagine they'd fight it.

There's no fraud at all going on here, so don't worry about that at all.

No you don't "earn" it and it isn't a perk. The reason that it increases over time and according to age is a reflection of the realities of working life when redundancy payments were first introduced, and the likelihood of the amount of time and retraining someone might need to do to obtain future employment. That is the real history. You can believe it is earned if you like, but that would then raise the question about why it doesn't continue to be earned, and why people "earn" more at different stages of life.

Legally it is compensation for the loss of employment and nothing more, which is why, if you are not considered to have lost employment, you aren't entitled to claim it.