Does raising a grievance ever achieve anything positive for the employee

[Snowchoc]

My son has raised one against a bullying boss. Son has no protected characteristics, but (from the one sided version I've heard) the boss does seem awful. I've also seen text messages she's sent him, sometimes up to 30 a day on his day off. I don't expect he's been perfect, but her behaviour does seem odd.

Anyway my advice, which he ignored, was that HR work for the company, not the employees, and really the best thing he could do was look for another job if he couldn't work with her.

He was determined she should get her comeuppance and put together a detailed grievance. He followed the policy and did a good his of the letter IMO, although I obviously don't know for sure if it was factual.

They took 11 weeks to respond, well outside of their own process and the investigation seems to have consisted of asking her about the allegations which she's denied. He gave dates, times and witnesses but they haven't followed up on any of that.

He's been moved to another branch, with a much longer commute and whilst they suggested there might be some money to compensate, that hasn't been forthcoming.

He's currently applying for other jobs, but is the lesson that there's never anything to be gained from using the grievance policy?

I'm afraid you're wrong. There may be a case for constructive dismissal, but he hasn't been there long enough to make that worthwhile, even if it was something he wanted to pursue.

I would expect it to be a different policy for bullying. We have a Dignity at work Policy and procedure for complaints of bullying.

What's the "objective" test of bullying then?

I am outraged to be wrong!! SURELY his boss is not allowed to bully him like this?!

Not clear whether the complaint was under a Grievance or a Dignity at Work policy. In my professional opinion, it's a DAW. We all hate getting those complaints because it's notoriously difficult to find actual evidence - and you cannot act without clear evidence! - and everyone ends up dissatisfied, particularly if you have one person's word against the other's with no witnesses.

@Snowchoc has there been an actual investigation? It's quite right that he's been moved - that's to protect both him and her. I'd recommend that too. I'm taking it the letter after 11 weeks is an 'outcome'?

That's not a proper investigation, and he should absolutely appeal, setting out all his grounds for doing so. Not interviewing witnesses is a rookie error! Of course she was going to deny it! He has evidence though?

In my organisation, while not perfect by any manner of means, would have interviewed all of the witnesses and reviewed all of the evidence. If there was evidence of bullying, then absolutely that manager would be disciplined. Depending on the level of the bullying, a sanction would be applied but it would be unlikely to meet the threshold for summary dismissal unless it was extreme.

Does he have a union? If not, he could still join one. They would give him advice but not represent him. They should have interviewed him as well as part of the investigation. It sounds like a total fuckup to me!

I will be honest - I always advise employees to try to resolve difficulties informally. These processes are stressful, protracted and often end up with an unsatisfactory outcome all round (due to lack of evidence) and leaves 2 employees with a completely broken working relationship.

That's his current complaint (only to me so far). He has an outcome letter but doesn't believe an investigation has been done, beyond asking her about it and her denying everything. No one spoke to him or any of his witnesses, or asked for any of the messages.

I've told him he needs to let it go and move on, but I understand his frustration.

My OH raised a grievance about his line manager who was shockingly bad. The grievance wasn't upheld but they didn't interview any of his witnesses and he had emails from his boss that proved his boss lied in the grievance investigation.

He appealed the outcome and it was heard at a senior level by someone outside of his work group. The grievance was upheld in all areas.

His boss 'retired' not long afterwards.

I confess Im a HR Director and I helped with his appeal. It was commented on during the appeal that it was very factual and thorough 😬

When dealing with grievances it is really so much more powerful to state a fact and the impact and any witnesses, then the next fact and the impact and any witness.

This way each element has to be considered separately.

With a 'he said - he said' situation a company just has to consider who has the most credible 'story' so. Y sticking to facts, impact and witnesses it looses the emotion/subjectivity and is much harder to dismiss.

Also never state things like 'everyone feels this way' or 'the whole team are unhappy'. The grievance needs to be about you and the impact it has had on you.

Not sure if that was any help but there are some good HR folks out there 🙏

When dealing with grievances it is really so much more powerful to state a fact and the impact and any witnesses, then the next fact and the impact and any witness.

That's exactly what he did, he really did put a very good letter together and he feels like they've barely looked at it. They certainly haven't responded to his points.

He really should appeal. They are probably relying on him going away quietly.

What's it likely to achieve though? All he was asking for was acknowledgement that the behaviour was unacceptable and some monitoring of it going forward. Even if they agreed it would only be lip service and his card's marked now.

@Snowchoc He's taken it thus far so he should appeal!

I take it he has less than 2 years' service?

That is so bad - there has literally been no investigation at all. He needs to flag this to more senior staff!

Theoretically, she hasn't been. He has been moved elsewhere so that she can't. Whilst @adriftinadenofvipers is correct that it would usually be seen as "good practice" to separate the people involved, all too often that isn't good practice at all - it's the outcome, and it's usually the complainant who is moved which often makes it an actual punishment for complaining.

@Stillnormal
No I’m pretty sure employees have a right to work without harassment regardless if protected characteristics. It’s not an equality act case maybe but it’s a case - there is no way this is acceptable.
It really isn't "a case" though. What you or I think acceptable isn't a legal basis for argument. There is no specific employment law on bullying or harassment. The only feasible case would be as @Snowchoc says - constructive dismissal. Those cases are nigh on impossible to win. Assuming the OPs son appealed, and still didn't like the outcome, he'd then have to resign. Not liking the outcome isn't grounds for a claim. The employers defence is that they looked into it, the manager wasn't bullying him, but they moved him to another branch so he wouldn't have to deal with the manager he didn't like. That's the point at which he loses. The tribunal does not have the power to decide what they think the employer ought to have done. They can only look at whether what the employer did take within the law. It does. The employer solved the problem by moving him, he therefore has no grounds to claim that his resignation was necessary or unavoidable.

Nothing good ever comes of it.

And then we all naturally get angry, why should I have to get a new job? Why is there no justice, in life. But the sad reality is that there is little. He can ask further questions his grievance to be re-reviewed, because unsurprisingly they did a shit investigation. But realistically they aren't going to suddenly find him correct, sack her, move him back and pay him a lump sum. Are they?

Depends what you’re doing it for or how you do it and sometimes when you do it.

I didn’t raise a formal grievance bit I did report 2 managers to HR as I was leaving a company for bullying, inappropriate behaviour, misconduct and discrimination. I put together a log of incidences affecting me and 2 colleauges, along with any proof. One manager got a bollocking and the other manager was purposefully let go during the restructure/redundancy process.

Can also have the opposite effect of exposing twats. A former friend and colleague raised a grievance because she had been put on a performance plan and claimed racism. It was thrown out due to the overwhelming evidence of years of poor work, but her poor manager was put through a lot.

Grievances done properly by both sides can be effective.

My husband has a protected characteristic. His colleague said something absolutely inexcusable during a teams meeting.

It was properly handled.

From how defensive the op is being I suspect she realised that her son's case is perhaps more woolly than he's letting on?

Your first advice to your DS should have been to think about what he hoped to achieve. Once he had that straight, the next thing he should have done was to set up an informal meeting with the manager and highlight his main concerns, not a laundry list of random things.

What was stopping him being effective in his role
one or two specific examples of the boss' behaviour that bothered him
what was he doing to show he was trying to do his best in his job.

all done respectfully and factually.

i suspect he is in the early stages of his career and the above many not have been realistic for him, but he needs to know for the future, as a learning experience.

firing off a formal grievance before trying to sort out the matter informally first, to give the manager the opportunity to respond wasn't very professional and would have shown him in a bad light.

His narrative of "incompetent bosses" could be him not recognising that the boss may have been frustrated about his behaviour, there are always two sides to every story.

HR (or as it’s very oddly called these days - The People Team 😩) is there to protect the company, that’s it.

He did all that. He met with his boss, he attempted to support her in her new role, he met with the area boss and it was area boss who advised him to raise a grievance. He gave DS the impression this was so that they had the evidence to deal with the problem, but I told DS at the time, I thought it was more likely to fob him off. DS wanted to believe the company were supporting him.

I'm well aware that he may have brought much of this on himself, but the company definitely haven't followed their own policies.

HR are my former large public sector employer told my colleague not to even think about raising a grievance as the managers will stick together and you’ll get nowhere.

I thought she was unprofessional to say that at the time, now I think she was just refreshingly honest.

This. It’s really surprising how many people don’t realise this.
What do people who think HR is on the side of staff, think Unions are for?!

Have you contacted ACAS?

Some daft responses here...

Of course bullying in the workplace can and should be challenged.

Managers are not allowed to harass staff and you don't need to have a 'protected characteristic'.

All employers have a duty of care to their employees.

Harassing your son on his days off and bullying in general goes against that.

Your son was right to stand up for himself.

Also the company is not following its own official grievance procedure and is ignoring him (which is very silly of them because they are opening themselves to an employment tribunal case) he will have a case for unfair dismissal if he ends up having to leave his job because of it.

Please suggest that your son has a chat with ACAS or his local citizen advice bureau rather than rely on the replies you are getting here...

From my experience raising a grievance is never positive. The whole team i was in raised one against our manager and it was very traumatic for us all. We ultimately all left however he remained in place and inflicted his awful management style on others who also then left. I would suggest your ds looks for another job and moves on from this experience.

It worked out well for me in the end but was a very difficult process. I raised a grievance about a bullying colleague. It wasn't taken overly seriously at the start, they told me that was just her personality and to ignore it. I was so unhappy at work because of it that I started applying for other jobs. It was only when they realised that I wasn't going to stay and put up with it that they realised they valued me as an employee more than her, and started to investigate properly. She knew what the outcome would be so she handed in her notice before they had a chance to investigate and fire her. But it's definitely something I hope I never have to go through again!