My ex employer wants me to pay them back a large sum

[ScatterMum1418]

I used to work for a company owned by 'friends' but left last year for many reasons.
The main reasons being I received a lot of harassment from a fellow colleague and my employer refused to take it seriously.
I was being expected to make myself available 24/7 making it impossible to be present for my children.
I handed in my notice and worked off the one month. Because I was on an annualised contract and my employer didn't always have work available for me,I had a lot of hours left over that I 'owed' them as my employer would send me home and tell me to owe him the hours another time. He would message work related questions and id be expected to do little bits without it being put down as hours worked. If I worked out how much work we all needed to do in order to not owe hours at the end of the season he would refuse to accept that and say we needed to be owing hours at the end of season.
I agreed to come back and work off some of these for free, but eventually said I couldn't do it anymore as he refused to let me work off the hours from home or promise me safety in the office without working with the colleague who had harassed me previously. I found a new job and have lost around £6000 a year in wage difference.
I've gone to acas for support but have run out of time to take it to tribunal and my ex employer is insisting I pay them back.
I've made an offer stretched out over a few years as I really cannot afford much but my ex employer is insisting it be paid back sooner.
I'm currently sat in a house with no heating as I've run out of oil and cannot afford to get more until my next pay day in three weeks time, I can barely afford a food shop so we are only managing one food shop a month. I am really struggling to keep on top of priority bills as it is so I know I cannot pay them back.
I feel as they refused to take my complaints seriously and I left for my own safety, I shouldn't have to pay them back. If I refuse my ex employers offer I could be taken to court.
As far as evidence is concerned I have very little other than a few screenshots from my ex employer admitting to being aware of what this colleague is like, he has since deleted the original message as it contained harsh words about his own partner who received the same harrassment from this colleague.
Has anyone been in a similar situation with an employer and have advice?

I went to ACAS originally for advice on the harrassment side of things, I've run out of time to take it to tribunal because it needs to be within a a certain time frame from the date the last harrassment happened. We are going through conciliation to resolve the dispute over money being owed. I have personally found the whole thing very confusing, I wanted advice on whether the contract was legal, if he acted appropriately regarding the harrassment complaints etc. however it has turned into that all being forgotten and the focus being on money owing without looking into if it is genuinely owed. What flagged as suspicious for me is him claiming money is owed due to me not working my months notice, when I actually did. If that is the case and they feel I only owe them for apparently not working off my months notice, then I shouldn't be paying back anything as I most certainly did work my one months notice and two or three days after that period voluntarily.

Don't engage at all. They won't take you to court as they are breaking loads of rules. Tell them you won't further engage.

Agree With the advice to stop engaging. Let him take you to court. His system of 'owing' hours sounds totally illegal.

Employers should note that employees on an annualised hours contract must receive their full pay, whether or not there was work available for them to work the unrostered element of their contractual hours.

https://www.davidsonmorris.com/annualised-hours/

Hope this is helpful, OP.

I hope you get this resolved swiftly. Just to reassure you I had a different cause but same outcome about two years ago. Employers - current or otherwise - have to support you with a repayment schedule which fits with your current levels of income. If throughout this you have offered to pay back the time owed, and have proposed a sensible plan. Then they are fools to turn it down.

The only thing I would suggest, if you haven't already, is to consider whether you are likely to still be earning the same amount in 10 years time and whether it would be wise to suggest review periods to see how payments might need to flex (up or down). Better to pay of early if and when you can, rather than have this hanging over you.

This sounds awful - there's no way I'd be agreeing to lay them anything back, I don't think they've acted legally at all, and I don't think they'd be able to prove anything in court either.

How much is the supposed amount OP?

So when you're offering to pay this back over X years, are you including the amount for the month he says you didn't work??

Do you have record of, say, emails sent and dealt wiht out of office hours over a period of years. This would prove that you were on clal 24/7 and that you have actually worked those hours and possibly more. that being sent home early should have been clocked as TOIL.

I agree with others. Let him take you to court.

I worked briefly for a man like that. He was awful. Ringing at all hours. Zero understanding that I had a life.

Did you not tot up out of hours work and clock those as admin hours?

Jesus op this is terrible. Let him take you to court. Keep all messages emails letters etc in a folder. I don’t think he stands a hope in hell of any court agreeing they have behaved reasonably!!!! This is disgraceful. Block all contact with them and move on. You could reach out to citizens advice about money and see if they can offer you any advice also. Best of luck. Don’t let them bully you - your contract is finished that’s it. Xx

From what you are saying it sounds like it's more in his favour to agree through conciliation than yours because if he goes to court he has to prove what hours you did and he can't. Your own evidence would be that he used to amend the worksheets without evidence of hours worked because he didn't believe people to use the system he had where they entered their own hours. Just stand firm and state you have worked enough hours to cover the payments made and you prove I haven't.

Can you prove when you gave your notice in and the day you left?

Having read all your posts op let him absolutely take you to court - none of what he is doing is legal and a court would find it ridiculous that he thinks a spreadsheet is ok for this sort of management of staff hours and pay. Refuse his offer and walk away. You owe him nothing and they should have managed the whole thing better - he’s not got a leg to stand on. Them deducting holiday is outrageous and a court would likely rule in your favour tbh!!! If I were you I would see a solicitor and take them to court for the harassment and also the lack of payment for your holiday pay that you accrued and they never paid you!

I would counter offer that any days he sent you home were his choice and as you were unable to do another job / cancel childcare etc - he needs to pay for those. Eg quiet today please go - he still needs to pay you. If you were doing other work at other times he then owes you overtime. Eg if you had 40 hours but he sent you home for 10 of them and then you worked those ten in addition - you worked 50 hours and he needs to give you those ten. Also don’t forget if you paid for childcare for 40 hours and then actually had to pay for 50 - to state this.

If you can prove he altered the time sheet eg you put in you worked a ten hour day and then he altered it saying in ‘his mind’ you only did 5 hours work of work - again this is his thoughts and not fact based and he has no evidence and he can’t do this - so again find emails or texts where you have challenged this.

so I would counteroffer and add up your working hours and overtime and then state he has 28 days to pay you the overtime of £x thousand - excel spreadsheet it.

state the harmful workplaces practices you were exposed to, the damage to your mental and emotional well being. The right to a work life balance as well as a family life. Etc as a separate paragraph and then state it is a letter before action and he has 28 days to pay.

Keep it all neutral and fact based.

eg Monday 2 nd March you asked me to work 8 am to 4 pm I duly came into work - you sent me home at 10 am (I had already commuted in and arranged childcare etc) and then told me to go home. You then refused to pay me for my rota from 10 am to 4 pm and then demanded, bullied and pressured me to work 10 am to 4 pm on an additional day and yet did not pay me overtime for this etc

day by day

They can't get blood from a stone! If it comes to court, if they find against you, they will look to see if you have made a reasonable offer. That will be decided by looking at your incomings and reasonable outgoings (will not accept luxuries). If on that basis you made a reasonable and affordable offer prior to legal commencement to repay the monies they deem you owe, the court may deem you were reasonable, and although you may have to pay it back, they won't award his legal costs against you ( so you won't have to pay his legal costs because he accrued them unreasonably). However, this all depends on whether the case has legs on it and you say ACAS say neither side has sufficient evidence for court.

Go to citizens advice as this is too complex on here for anyone to give you an informed answer.

If you can prove he is lying about your 1 months notice then what else is he lying about

I would be asking to go to court as this guy seems to not have a leg to stand on if he is lying about your 1 months notice and was changing times on work sheets.

I would also start making note of the time spent on sorting this out and charging them eg £20 per hour.

If the other person and you get together and pool your evidence, emails, documentation, texts etc to see what evidence you have

Have you got your original work contract as sometimes what you are contracted to do and what the law states are not in agreement
What were your stated hours. If in your contract it states you hours will be 9-5 Monday to Friday and doesn’t mention flexible time and they send you home each day at 2pm then that is up to the company and you shouldn’t be required to make up the hours from your holiday allowance.

I suggest you get them to take you to court because this company seems to be changing the goal posts of what they seem to be accusing you of. At least in a court you get to know exactly what their problem is and then can get evidence to disprove that

Even petrol receipts/bus/train tickets that show even in a tenuous way you were going to the destination of work. Lunches and shopping receipts bought in the vicinity of work, bought before and after work or during your lunch break.
Even entries on your bank statements should show going to work or being in the vicinity of work on the days you were working your notice.

Could the other person look through their statements and receipts to see what they have to show this company is lying.

Exactly.

And your itemised phone records, if you can get them, might show calls received and made to support the "non-working" time

I've never known an employer ask for time in lieu ☹️. You are paid for forty hours but could leave early if the work was done. I would also be totting up the times you were emailed at home to do work.

What was the outcome op?