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Civil service 60% mandate

343 replies

meagert · 16/11/2023 15:38

What have your managers said to you? Do you think your department/SCS/line manager will be strict on this? Or do you think it'll be like the last time they tried a departmental push where it was a bit ad hoc?!

Possibly too soon to tell, our SCS haven't said very much yet and will "be in touch soon".

OP posts:
arintingly · 22/11/2023 08:19

The variation is bizarre - I have worked in three Departments since the pandemic and all three have been bringing people back to the office since 2021 but it sounds like others have been WFH the whole time?

Sisterpita · 22/11/2023 08:48

@user2382349 exactly my point. The fact a GE is going to happen in 2024 is relevant.

Tarbert12 · 22/11/2023 08:56

Unlikely before the end of the year, though

Newpeep · 22/11/2023 08:57

arintingly · 22/11/2023 08:19

The variation is bizarre - I have worked in three Departments since the pandemic and all three have been bringing people back to the office since 2021 but it sounds like others have been WFH the whole time?

Depends on the local policy. The CS is diverse. DH is one and his section’s policy (highly specialised area) was ‘in for a purpose’ and no mandated in office attendance. They do attend when needed for collaborative work. As a result they’ve hired all over the country to fill big gaps. Now what? Before Covid they were pushing for hybrid. This isn’t new for some areas.

Its a huge mess.

Tarbert12 · 22/11/2023 08:57

And @arintingly yes I've worked from home since 2020. I will refuse if they try to change that.

arintingly · 22/11/2023 08:59

I wasn't being critical, just quite surprised

Almondmum · 22/11/2023 09:01

I can't see my department doing much to enforce it. They've been closing down offices all over the place and hiring people based on WFH with the result that there are loads of teams with no official base. Our grade 7 clearly doesn't want to go into the office either.

So far with 40% they've said they want us to do it but won't force us.

ElderMillenials · 22/11/2023 09:24

I had the call telling us all about the benefits of this 60%, there were no actual answers or real benefits.
The question was asked directly about dispersed teams and was met with 'ahhhh well you can share ideas with other people'. In reality though it doesn't happen, because most teams are so spread out everyone is sat on teams calls with very little time to talk. Buildings are closing, space is reduced and there's shit set ups at desks.

Personally, I'll be requesting a formal home working contract because my hub office is over an hour away and it's not manageable to do that 3 days a week- I was hired remote with the agreement I'd attend when needed which I do- and the local office is for field based people so I'd be sat alone. More than happy to attend when there's a reason, generally monthly and often overnights but like most I talk to there's just no advantage to going in for the sake of it.

Sisterpita · 22/11/2023 09:29

WFH has had a varied history in the CS and Depts have had different approaches.

Historically many senior managers liked presenteeism as they felt it drove productivity but management allowed themselves to occasionally WFH whilst resisting WFH policies for staff.

2012 was a game changer as the Olympics needed CS in London to WFH to reduce footfall on the Tube, trains and buses. The MCO commissioned a standard WFH policy and pressure applied to all depts to implement.

Many senior managers then went back to the archaic presenteeism approach and turned back some of the advances.Sadly many Depts did not use the opportunity to develop a proper WFH policy which included pay.

Covid was a game changer and the dragging of heels = failure to have proper WFH policies, backfired spectacularly.

Had Depts thought WFH through after the Olympics they could have put in place a reasonable policy including the basic reward principles of attracting, retaining and motivating employees.

A pay policy where everyone is on the same National pay bands. Location allowances/pay bands cease e.g. London weighting ceases. An office allowance is introduced, based on a combination of location, average travel costs per location and average commute e.g. £5k Zone 1 central London £2.5k Outer London/Manchester/Newcastle etc.

The allowance is paid retrospectively based on the pro-rata number of days in the office in the previous year. This would compensate some of the commuting time and costs and incentivise /support at least some presence in the office on a regular basis.

52 weeks in a year less leave = c44 weeks round down to 40 days = average of 20% in the office = 20% of allowance.

The problem is this had to be in place before Covid to work.

Tallisker · 22/11/2023 09:42

I was recruited during lockdown and live three hours away from my closest hubs. The thing about widening the talent pool to nationwide was made much of. It makes no sense to undo all that. I can't relocate to be near a hub.

If I were to go into my 'local' big office, I would be on Teams all day long (like I am at home) because nobody in my directorate lives near me. My DD originally said that is pointless and only to come into the office to specifically work with people.

Someone mentioned levelling up, also supporting rural communities is being trashed by this measure.

PowerTulle · 22/11/2023 17:08

Our local hub just isn’t set up for more office workers. The main regional office was sold off (years before the pandemic) and hybrid working introduced in around 2018. We’re now squeezed into a tiny flexible working hub, with no kitchen area (not even a sink or tap) and no meeting or quiet space. On the rare days we are all required in, eg for in-person training, half of us have to share desk space or stand around in breaks and go home early, so it’s impossible to get anything done.

CS are just showing they can’t keep up with modern working culture. Most of my sector are fully online and work nationally and internationally, so if my colleagues are in the hub I’m surrounded by everyone on teams with headphones on, trying to chair meetings and do presentations while shouting over each other. With dodgy internet connections that are a downside of the highly compromised office space we had to downsize to.

And I’d love to see govt justify this against their environmental targets, enforcing completely pointless travel for rural staff over huge distances. Not exactly showing a good example is it?

SoddingWeddings · 22/11/2023 18:30

@PowerTulle you could report the lack of staff facilities to the council - they enforce this (not HSE) and it's a legal requirement to provide the basics for staff. It won't cure things, but a spot of enforcement action tends to focus their minds.

fashionqueen1183 · 22/11/2023 21:19

PowerTulle · 22/11/2023 17:08

Our local hub just isn’t set up for more office workers. The main regional office was sold off (years before the pandemic) and hybrid working introduced in around 2018. We’re now squeezed into a tiny flexible working hub, with no kitchen area (not even a sink or tap) and no meeting or quiet space. On the rare days we are all required in, eg for in-person training, half of us have to share desk space or stand around in breaks and go home early, so it’s impossible to get anything done.

CS are just showing they can’t keep up with modern working culture. Most of my sector are fully online and work nationally and internationally, so if my colleagues are in the hub I’m surrounded by everyone on teams with headphones on, trying to chair meetings and do presentations while shouting over each other. With dodgy internet connections that are a downside of the highly compromised office space we had to downsize to.

And I’d love to see govt justify this against their environmental targets, enforcing completely pointless travel for rural staff over huge distances. Not exactly showing a good example is it?

I think legally an employer has to provide things like water. I agree with the comment above about reporting it and/or using it and an excuse not to go in.

StellaGibson2022 · 22/11/2023 21:50

@CSWife

Further, I would have thought and easier target would be compliance with London allowance threshold? I can't recall what in-office % was set to retain it post Covid, but DH has people in his team non-compliant, but can't do anything because there is zero enforcement across the department.

Where can I find out more about the threshold please? Am so fed of working with people in receipt of the London allowance but they never set a foot in the office!

CSWife · 22/11/2023 23:02

@StellaGibson2022 I have just asked him. It sounds like it has never been fully defined or enforced, but:

-Pre covid anyone who mainly worked in London received it. Most were five days but there were certainly some who were at home one day per week
-Post Covid, DH thinks it was a glide path over time to 50% time in London to retain it. That deadline is now passed (he can't recall when it was)
-It is not enforced and no one seems to have my interest in so doing. He's pretty disparaging of HR.

It's a hot topic, but no one wants to rock the boat on it.

AnneElliott · 22/11/2023 23:13

Agree with lying low and seeing what happens. We currently don't audit people in our Department and it will probably stay the same anyway. The SCS call this week was pretty horrendous- they were all moaning about it on sli do anonymously which I don't think the DG appreciated.

So if they're all pjssed off they're probably not going to be quoting the more junior staff.

Ilikewinter · 23/11/2023 07:22

It appears we will be going to the 60%. We are currently at 40% and this is monitored, I hoped it might blow over as we dropped to 40% due to lack of office space, however, the latest new joins who hadnt started flexi as they are in their training perood have been told they will go straight onto 60% hybrid 😥

hiddle · 23/11/2023 07:23

Where can I find out more about the threshold please? Am so fed of working with people in receipt of the London allowance but they never set a foot in the office!

I get London weighting and only go in 2 times a month. I would happily hand it over for the piece and mind of a remote working contract but I suspect they would much rather give me the £3/4K and only allow me flexible working. It's not civil servants taking the piss, it's the way the system is set up currently. London weighting is done on your pin, trying to contractually change that to depend on your office time, to monitor that, go to consultation, change policy etc, all of that takes work, and as we've seen the govt don't actually give a shit about it to want to actually try to fix it sensibly, they want headline fodder. So I really wouldn't take it so personally,

StellaGibson2022 · 23/11/2023 10:41

@hiddle what is a pin?

I cant help to take it personally and my actual work is aligned to the London region with face to face elements - not coming in puts more pressure on those who are there for the mandated two days per week although I am often there 3-4 times a week.

However financially it does piss me off; London weighting or equivalent location allowances have been paid in recognition of the higher cost of living that has always been a factor in London as a way to either attract or retain staff.

Why should someone who benefits from the higher salary but never has the expense of either travelling into or living in London benefit from it? And yes this is from someone who lives in London but does of course also still have to pay to travel in London. And in the wider scope London is also affected by the cost of living crisis and as someone who very much comes
from a London community that also needs some ‘levelling up’ too…

I do agree with you for what it is worth, there should be some sort of overhaul to make it fairer but I suspect you are right that it is more headline grabbing but as my role is front facing and based in the London region I am happy to go in for 3 days a week.

hiddle · 23/11/2023 11:50

@StellaGibson2022 it's where you are based. So your pin determines your salary, if I lived in London but was based in Birmingham the reverse would be true, I would be on the national scale.

Let's face is London weighting goes nowhere near touching the sides of what it costs to live in around London, it's laughable. If they offered me a remote contract I would hand it over in a second, but it doesn't work like that, and in the meantime, until it's changed (because I'm sure it will be, just waiting on the Daily Mail to make a fuss and make it a cause worthwhile for the govt) I'm not going in 3 days a week just because I'm getting what works out to be about £150 net which would be my commute for 3 days.

Turkey18 · 24/11/2023 16:34

Who is Jason Harper

Civil service 60% mandate
hiddle · 24/11/2023 16:35

No one I care about 🤷‍♀️

Newpeep · 24/11/2023 17:21

It’s like these (probably right wing) journalists think that they are only working when they’re in the office. If it’s not teachers they’re moaning at it’s CS. How the hell do they think the country keeps going with constant ministerial change and upheaved, change of policy and disruption?

The country would have ground to a halt if it were left to the shower of government we have.

Twats.

AllWeWantToDo · 24/11/2023 17:30

We've been on 40% for around 6 years now. No idea where they think we are all going to sit. The new office that opened in 2021 doesn't have as much space

user2382349 · 25/11/2023 16:03

Turkey18 · 24/11/2023 16:34

Who is Jason Harper

About half way down that comment is says we are overpaid 😂

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