In need of HR advice

[musickeys]

Several times a year I attend a meeting and deliver a presentation to about 20 people that lasts 20 minutes to half an hour (at the very most). The whole meeting is 3-4 hours long and is always in the evening from 5pm onwards.

In my job we have a flexible working policy which sounds great but it means people often end up working far more than their contracted hours or during times when they shouldn’t have to be working. My contract does not state I have to work evenings.

I’ve attended these meetings up until this point because I can dial into them remotely from home and present online. However I have been told that the next one is an in person meeting at a site away from the main office which is 30 miles away from my home and even further from the main office. Myself and others have remotely attended meetings that have been held at this site in the past so it’s not an issue of there not being the necessary equipment to make this possible.

This means I won’t get home until 9.15pm at the earliest and won’t have time for any dinner before I get back after working all day and then attending this meeting in the evening. I’m a nervous driver and some of the roads enroute to the meeting location are really nasty and I will be driving home in the dark. I have 2 young children so it basically means I won’t see them all day and my son will have to miss his piano lesson (which I have already paid for) because we only have one car. I know that’s not my employers problem but I was only told on Wednesday about this meeting now being an in person.

For context I support a number of different areas and this is just one of them - I am already feeling stressed because of work. I just lost a member of my team which means I will be covering their tasks until we manage to replace them and I am at my limit. I took some annual leave recently and had to log on on my days off to ensure certain tasks were done and I’m feeling pretty run down at the moment.

I need to know where I stand with this because I think it will become a regular expectation from now on. It’s not somewhere accessible via public transport unfortunately and I will be at the mercy of whatever the weather happens to be at the time. My manager doesn’t know I’ve been asked to do this and I am planning to speak to them about it in the morning but it would be useful to know where I stand legally or from an HR perspective in relation to this.

What level is your role at? Unless you are quite junior I should imagine it is not an unreasonable request.

Many job descriptions / contracts mention working unusual hours from time to time.

You could perhaps say it is too short notice for this but you will attend f2f next time, which gives you chance to get prepared?

Hello,

I have experience here. Your contract will set out your working hours but also likely says that you will be expected to work in other locations or outside core hours at the managers discretion.

Also is being able to drive part of your contract! It is for most.

As you have flexible working you can and should be taking this time back. And I would recommend a wider step back to reassess your work. If overall it’s a good job perhaps one evening every few months you can get back isn’t an unreasonable ask.

I’ve had a look at the role profile for my job. There is a section on driving with occasional, regular or required but they haven’t selected any of the boxes. There is a mention on the need to be flexible with working hours to meet deadlines but that will mean I’m working pretty much a 12 hour day and not having an evening meal until I get home - which I probably won’t want anyway that time of night. I’m working the day after the meeting.

If this was once or even twice a year it wouldn’t be such an issue but there are several of these meetings throughout the year. I am not a senior manager or head of service.

It is pretty normal to work an occasional evening and get in,eat toast and go to bed. I don't do it often but I don't consider it outrageous. Do you prefer a fixed routine?

You don't sound like you are enjoying your job much?

I don't think the odd 12 hour day is too much to ask particularly if you can take toil. Driving In the contract would be for the job Itself not driving to a meeting. Can you not take a packed tea if you can't wait until 9 for food?

Plenty of people work a late then an early shift (8/9 is not particularly late).
As long as the hours don't reduce your pay to below minimum wage although are you salaried if you're on flexitime?

I think it would come down to any other duties as required

Sorry, I don't have any HR advice here but a similar thing happens in academia and I hate it. Teach during the day as well as weekly classes of an MA 6-9pm and then in the next morning at 9am. I live an hour away so don't get home until 10am.

*10pm (once a week)

It’s not having to work an occasional evening, it’s having to work all day plus an evening add into that a 60 mile round trip into the mix. Plus I’m already over stretched so it will be tricky to claim back the hours as time off because it will mean I end up falling behind even more.

If you think that is too many working hours for you and have flexi time can't you work a shorter day in working hours to offset it? A late start or long lunch?

I get that you have a lot of work to do but it sounds like you always do.

I can’t, I already work way over my hours each week. I’m only allowed to claim back a certain number of hours and this will probably add to the hours I’m not allowed to claim back because it will take me over the maximum that’s allowed. I think I just find this frustrating because I work really hard and am really conscientious. I already go above and beyond and I could easily have dialled into this meeting. I was on leave for half term recently and instead of taking my children out somewhere nice they were stuck in front of screens for several hours because I had to work a couple of hours to finish an urgent task. And this happened on 3 of my days when I had annual leave booked.

I would speak to your manager and explain you aren't happy about having to dial in on holiday etc (that's ridiculous- does your manager know?) and then also mention this meeting as part of the same conversation about your overtime getting out of hand because you are over capacity

This really isn't an unusual situation.
Start later that day. Have a big linch.
Your employer could hire you a car - dropped of up your house, or whether is convenient- if public transport isn't feasible.
Or a taxi?

Please consult your contract - it will state expected working hours on it and most likely will have a clause about flexibility around hours outside of that. It may total something like 37.5 per week.

Also have a look at driving in your contract not in your job ad profile or whatever it was you looked at.

You will need to put on your big girl pants and have a conversation with your manager on this. To an extent I do agree with some PP that say this isn't an outrageous request, but you have a contract with an expectation of hours worked and you shouldn't feel the need to work outside of that.

Even senior management are not required to give every hour of every day to their jobs or annual leave for that matter. It's a very antiquated way of looking at working life if you think they do.

If you want HR advice I wouldn't ask on Mumsnet as you'll likely get rinsed for "not wanting to work/you had a child deal with it etc etc" and it's not helpful. There are Facebook groups eg this one

m.facebook.com/groups/572824459869492/?ref=share

Where HR professionals will provide you with some advice. Good luck OP and have that conversation - you're not being unreasonable.

Thank you. Yes I will have a look - I’m already way over capacity and I feel like I need to start saying no to certain things because I’m tired, stressed, feel like I’m missing out on time with my family when I shouldn’t need to such as on days off or if I work extra hours over weekends and it’s affecting my mental health.

Well you need to stop that. Be firm with yourself - I find people who do this (I did it too) are their own worst enemy because the workload gets done and the employer starts to expect that.

Caveat I'm not HR!

If this means driving from one place of work to another during the working day and you do not have business insurance on your car, your car insurance may not cover the journey. At many places of work now you have to show your business insurance cover in order to claim travel expenses. If driving is really not in your JD/contract it may be worth highlighting this.

It sounds though to me that the problem is less doing the occasional meeting and more not being able to get your time back. Assuming you're working at an appropriate rate and not taking an overlong time to perfect everything you do, then personally. I would highlight the need to get your time back as time and energy are tight for you. if no resolution is forthcoming I'd consider taking all my flexi time due back every period so I don't lose out on time, let the routine work get behind as a result and keep manager informed (xyz most low priority routine jobs will not be done on time this week as I need to take my time back from when you called me in on holiday). If they don't want that to happen, you could suggest they pay you for the overworked hours (or if the pay isn't worth it, suggest they pay you overtime rate). Unions etc may also nave useful advice. Good luck.

I would let them know it's not possible at such short notice as no child care and no transport. Ask them to expense both those things for you and you'll find out how vital it is to be in-person. My guess is as soon as it becomes difficult for them they'll realise it's not vital. I am shocked at everyone saying that this is ok. Are you a teacher presenting at a governors meeting by any chance? I am not HR but this is what I'd do.

I just wrote a long answer and lost it, but in essence, in my experience as a manager in an organisation that has worked on flexitime for 20+ years

1 - Attending a business meeting in the evening, for the benefit of your employer is "extra ordinary". You should be able to arrange to carry over a lieu day for a given period eg: 3 /6/12 months, to take at your convenience.

2 - there is a skill to managing your flexi time, so you don't keep losing the hours you've accumulated. In my case, I book a day off in advance, every 6 weeks or so. I know I'll always have the time in hand! Sometimes the day is to coincide with personal appts/errands, sometimes it's a day off just for me.

3 - stop attending meetings virtually when you are on leave! Leave is for your own r&r not just childcare! 4 or 5 years ago, pre Covid, pre meetings moving to MSTeams, you wouldn't have been able to attend meetings whilst on leave, so don't do it now! "I'm sorry, I can make that date, I've already booked annual leave" is a perfectly valid statement for any employee.

4 - what you're being asked isn't that unusual or difficult to manage re transport and compensation . If you can make it work, then I'd advise that you do. Build up a few brownie points. With small children, you never know when you're going to need your employer to be flexible and understanding about a child bring unwell/in an accident/sent home from school for any reason. If you can't make it work "I'm sorry, I have childcare commitments that evening, but I'd like to attend future meetings with a bit more notice" should work.

Obvs.. "have a big lunch".

Take sandwiches and get a babysitter?

Not being unsympathetic because I am but if it’s part of your job you have to do it. It sounds like they’ve been very accommodating so far.

But why should I? And that won’t necessarily stave off any hunger later in the day anyway. Flexible working seems to work more in the favour of the employers.

It's time to ask for a meeting with your manager to review your workload. This isn't sustainable. And if your manager is half decent, she'll be appalled that you're working on AL days.

Also is being able to drive part of your contract! It is for most.

Not necessarily true. I was recently informed by HR that I couldn’t ask for someone to have a driving licence when recruiting provided they always work in one place - only that they could get themselves to the office.

OP it sounds like you’re pissed off with work and you’ve decided, rightly or wrongly, this is the hill you want to die on. I would stand back, I would talk to my manager and I would ask them to carve a clear path for you to be able to work without the level of stress you’re experiencing.

Make a list of tasks, don’t be petty and stick every last item on it, but be realistic and brief your manager on the topic you want to discuss.

Ask what elements of the role you can drop while they are recruiting and how long they expect this to go on for.

I would explain that you’re going around in a loop racking up TOIL and being unable to take it. This is having a negative effect on you and your home life, and then use this as an example of how that’s the case.

A flexible working policy should enable an employee to strike a balance with the company, it doesn’t mean you work twice as hard as everyone else. Be prepared to accept some half solutions - it might be they suggest car sharing to reduce your anxiety about driving - that’s probably reasonable too.

A manager is there to guide you through the mud, use them. Don’t suffer in silence.