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Original poster

Annual leave

74 replies

Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 08:27

2 members of the same team cannot be off at the same time. Long term policy and is clear.

When it comes to school holidays or festive/religious seasons, turns are given to make it fair.

Holiday calendar recently opened for next year. It is first come first served. Both put their requests in the same day

Person 1 requests their usual period of time in a particular month as per the past few years running when no other requests clashed. It is not school holidays or any important holiday season.

Person 2’s new holiday request slightly overlaps with person 1’s. person 2 demands their manager give them the entire holiday request to be fair to them, as person 1 had it last year (and therefore decline person 1’s whole holiday). However, person 2 also had time off in that same month in previous years, just not the same exact week.

manager did not approve either request and asked them both to compromise and sort out the clash which neither of them want to do.

Who is being unfair?

OP posts:
midgemadgemodge · 03/10/2023 09:49

I'd give it to person 1 as they have usually asked that and it usually doesn't clash

This is the first year of clash - next years person 2 can have it

lenalove · 03/10/2023 10:18

The manager is in the wrong in not doing their job and managing the situation! They should be speaking to both employees to better understand why exactly they would like this specific week off, and see if a compromise can be reached. Telling staff to sort it out amongst themselves is poor.

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 11:09

Thanks for responses. more context.

No the team is very small. The calendar has a physical barrier meaning it stopped person 2 putting in their request. So person 1 got there first and person 2 had to make a manual request. Person 2 demanded the holiday given to them, even though they were 2nd to put it in.

The overlap rule is in for a reason, because over time in the past the overlaps were not just exceptional circumstances they happened more frequently and the work suffered.

Annual leave is meant to be organised between each team using a calendar, but when it comes to special times of year, managers step in to keep it fair. They don’t tend to step in every time someone asks for one individual week. It’s up to each individual employee to not book the same time as each other unless exceptional circumstances. No one should pay for holiday until it’s been approved for this reason. However if it’s a wedding or an event then it would get priority

Manager asked them first if they would compromise to give them the opportunity. Manager did not say they wouldn’t sort it out, but gave them the chance first.

No one has provided exceptional circumstances

OP posts:
rookiemere · 03/10/2023 11:14

How many days is the overlap and does manager have any discretion to override?

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 11:18

rookiemere · 03/10/2023 11:14

How many days is the overlap and does manager have any discretion to override?

3 days overlap.

Yes. but to do so would have a big impact on all the other teams who have the same rules. It is only over ridden for exceptional circumstances. No one would have to cancel their leave if someone else was off sick, or if there was a hospital appt or something really important. For simple normal holidays it’s 1 person at a time in each team.

OP posts:
Certainlyreally · 03/10/2023 11:21

Well if it is not a 'special' week, then it goes to the person who booked first (ie You)

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 11:26

Certainlyreally · 03/10/2023 11:21

Well if it is not a 'special' week, then it goes to the person who booked first (ie You)

I’m not person 1 😁

OP posts:
rookiemere · 03/10/2023 11:27

3 days is a big overlap, so much as I feel it is an imperfect way of doing it, on this occasion person who booked first should get it.

Certainlyreally · 03/10/2023 11:40

Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 11:26

I’m not person 1 😁

Show quote history

Well your tone indicates you sure aren't person 2

what is your interest in this then?

FuckoffeeBeforeCoffee · 03/10/2023 11:45

The rules are rules.

Person 1 gets it.

Poniesandrainbows · 03/10/2023 11:53

Certainlyreally · 03/10/2023 11:40

Well your tone indicates you sure aren't person 2

what is your interest in this then?

Edited
Show quote history

The manager I think

Certainlyreally · 03/10/2023 11:57

Poniesandrainbows · 03/10/2023 11:53

The manager I think

Show quote history

Surely not, the manager should be managing.

manager did not approve either request and asked them both to compromise and sort out the clash which neither of them want to do.

Mangolover123 · 03/10/2023 12:02

As a manager i would give the two the opportunity to sort it out between them first.
If not I would make the decision and it would be the first to request the time off.

Youcancallmeirrelevant · 03/10/2023 12:05

1st come 1st served, person 1 gets it. I'm not sure why this is being discussed?

SuperheroBirds · 03/10/2023 12:28

Mangolover123 · 03/10/2023 12:02

As a manager i would give the two the opportunity to sort it out between them first.
If not I would make the decision and it would be the first to request the time off.

Exactly this. They should be given the opportunity to sort it out between themselves as they are both adults. If they can’t agree between themselves, then it is first come first served so person 1 gets it.

ImCamembertTheBigCheese · 03/10/2023 12:35

If it is first come first served then surely person 1 gets it.

However I think both person 1 and person 2 are being rather childish in not at least discussing why they want the time off with each other.

chopc · 03/10/2023 12:42

If it's first come first served and no special circumstances, then why is there an issue? The person who put their request in first should get it

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 12:52

Yes I am manager.

I gave weeks of notice when the calendar was going to open and the day the advance leave would be authorised. This provides everyone who really wants something to request it up to a 14 months in advance and know they can book/pay. The calendar is fully visible to everyone. It also stays open so future leave can be booked any time.

On the authorisation day I was confronted by person 2 who was upset they had missed out. person 2 demanded the leave as it was unfair and asked me to approve theirs using the Christmas method of turn taking.

I gave person 2 the chance to ask their colleague if there was a compromise as person 1 got there first and if no compromise I would get involved to make the decision. Person 1 said no they couldn’t compromise. I asked them both if there was any exceptional circumstances, neither replied.

Person 2 then they wanted to talk to me and it was basically just how it was unfair and general complaints about their colleague not compromising (who they don’t like) said I had no empathy and was unapproachable. In my own opinion this isn’t true, as this person has a lot of contact with me and has had a lot of support in the past. They had a tantrum

OP posts:
WeWereInParis · 03/10/2023 13:05

I asked them both if there was any exceptional circumstances, neither replied.

There must be some exceptional circumstances, otherwise why so much bloody grief. This is outside of school holidays, and outside of national or religious holidays? They're just arguing about who gets to have a few random days off?

The reason for turn taking at Christmas is because that is an exceptional circumstance that you know in advance multiple people will want off. If person 2 can't provide you with a reason here, then it's first come first served.

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 13:09

WeWereInParis · 03/10/2023 13:05

I asked them both if there was any exceptional circumstances, neither replied.

There must be some exceptional circumstances, otherwise why so much bloody grief. This is outside of school holidays, and outside of national or religious holidays? They're just arguing about who gets to have a few random days off?

The reason for turn taking at Christmas is because that is an exceptional circumstance that you know in advance multiple people will want off. If person 2 can't provide you with a reason here, then it's first come first served.

Frankly I am sick of them both. This really was not something I needed to spend time on and I think I was actually being too nice or made it worse suggesting they actually spoke to each other

OP posts:
Express0 · 03/10/2023 13:14

I think for the sake of three days let them have it off. If the business cannot cope with both off for three days then you have a business continuity issue.

rookiemere · 03/10/2023 13:15

Yes unfortunately it does sound like you were too nice. Honestly they both sound about 12, even if you didn't get on that well with your work colleague if you could only take time off when they were there, surely you'd speak to each other to agree dates.

I'd therefore go back and say that based in policy of first come first served, Person 1 gets their leave. Honestly sounds like it might be a blessing if Person 2 leaves in a huff.

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 13:17

Express0 · 03/10/2023 13:14

I think for the sake of three days let them have it off. If the business cannot cope with both off for three days then you have a business continuity issue.

Yes most small businesses do have this issue I do not work for a large organisation. The 3 days off together would mean person 1 would come back from holiday to a big 3 day backlog. Person 2 has no backlog to come back to. I don’t think that’s fair.

OP posts:
Daddylonglegs123 · 03/10/2023 13:59

I think you need to manage and person one should get the time off in this instance. Think person 2 is just being awkward and out for trouble. Maybe say to them both person 1 can have those weeks this year but if a clash for those weeks next year person 2 gets first choice.

We have this at work 2 FTE (1 FT and 2 PT) I normally like to be organised and book my leave fairly near the start of the year.

The FT member of our team is extremely laid back and always leaves everything to the last minute. More recently (to avoid my manager managing) we have been asked to discuss all leave between us before booking it. This is always awkward and uncomfortable we are asked to have an email discussion copying in our Manager.

Quite often I book leave and ask the FT person months before if it is ok if I book a holiday on these dates. Mostly she says she can’t think that far ahead then 9 times out of 10 she always wants some leave the same time I have booked off and often I have booked a holiday or made other plans. I never ask for leave if she has already booked leave as I wouldn’t want to put my manager in an awkward situation (but she doesn’t seem to care).

Original poster
Rolly99 · 03/10/2023 14:45

@Daddylonglegs123 i wouldn’t be having that as a manager it is just tough luck if you don’t book it in advance! And if you are polite enough to check with a colleague then it’s fair game.

I have a 2nd team who are constantly asking me to lift the rules as there are a couple with kids so they want school holidays off at the same time, but to have multiple off would leave us in a bad position so I am always saying no. So if I let 1 team I would have to let others.

I just wish I had said no immediately and not suggested talking to their colleague I won’t do that again

OP posts: