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Work

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Original poster

Can work insist on shorter hours/part time if the person can't cope full time?

19 replies

TiredButDancing · 19/08/2023 12:55

This is more of an academic exercise for me. I know a woman a bit from the school run, albeit not well. She has some health issues and is currently working full time in a financial services firm but as an accountant. She works from home 3 days and in the office 2 days. However, on her in person days, she can't travel in rush hour and she has to be home for school runs so she goes in for around 10:00 and leaves at 2:30. She hasn't said but I think she also does shorter hours on her days at home (certainly, I always see her on school run, but I don't think that's entirely relevant as lots of people work at weird times).

Apparently her boss is mostly supportive but there's a team internally she hates working with but that IS part of her job which she can't do because it stresses her out. So now her boss and HR are telling her that they want her to move formally to part time hours as that is basically what she's doing.

She asked me what I think as she says that output is more important and, except for this one team that she doesn't work with, she says she DOES do what needs to be done. Obviously, I can't comment on that. But I do know that she's th main breadwinner so without her wage, they would struggle.

I felt a bit blindsided. What could I say? I told her that surely she should talk to HR and, if necessary, get her own legal advice. But I have to admit, I'm thinking it sounds like she's a bit of a piss taker. But then, she does have health issues so it's not really her fault?

I'm not getting involved. But I have been thinking about it ever since she asked me a couple of weeks ago!

OP posts:

Shinyandnew1 · 19/08/2023 12:58

Surely she doesn’t have to be there during school hours-she’s choosing to because it’s cheaper/convenient. If she needs to be in more to do her job, can she find a childminder/use wraparound care?

PTSDBarbiegirl · 19/08/2023 13:00

Ask manager for an Occupational Health referral to discuss reasonable adjustments needed.

Littlecovid · 19/08/2023 13:02

No they can’t make her go part time. But if she is employed full time but not working full time they could sack her. Why doesn’t she have childcare arranged for the school run?

Original poster

TiredButDancing · 19/08/2023 13:03

PTSDBarbiegirl · 19/08/2023 13:00

Ask manager for an Occupational Health referral to discuss reasonable adjustments needed.

Oh, I forgot. She did say something about occupational therapy and it was after that that her boss and HR are saying she should consider going part time? Sorry, I didn't get the details - we were chit chatting at the park! So I'm not sure if it was OT's assessment she should go part time? Probably makes a big difference to my question?

OP posts:

MintJulia · 19/08/2023 13:05

If her employer pays her for certain hours, they can require her to be on-line & working during those hours. If she doesn't do as they ask, they could in theory put her on a disciplinary and then dismiss her.

Or they can move her to a part time contract with the hours she actually works.

If her health issues are on-going, they need to make reasonable adjustment but can still reduce her hours.

If she wants to stay full time, she needs wrap around care.

Blanketenvy · 19/08/2023 13:14

She could request reasonable adjustments but usually that wouldn't be a permanent reduction in working hours. At some point they would expect you to reduce your hours accordingly. If she has had an OH assessment have they made recommendations for adjustments? It could be things like more flexibility in her working hours, more breaks, less time in office, tech to help etc but wouldn't usually be an actual reduction in hours e.g you are contracted for 37.5 but you can just work 30 unless for a very defined period of time.
I'm not a hr expert just someone with a lot of health issues, reasonable adjustments who works part time.

letmesailletmesail · 19/08/2023 13:45

If she has a disability, then she can ask for reasonable adjustments. However, those adjustments would be to come in early & leave early or come in late & leave late or do a couple of hours from home, come in for a few hours and do a bit more from home if needed, so they all involve her doing the full 7 hours a day (or whatever her contract requires) that she is paid for. She can't do 10 - 2.30 and be paid full time well, not if her bosses and colleagues have cottoned onto it

NoTouch · 19/08/2023 13:50

she says that output is more important

Unless her work contract is written as she must achieve x and y and hours are flexible she cannot make that decision unilaterally.

If her contract says she is paid for 35 hours she should be working on average 35 hours. If she can do the output in 20 hours then why would they pay her for 35?

Original poster

TiredButDancing · 19/08/2023 15:49

It sounds like being fired is more likely than being offered fewer hours, so perhaps she should take it!?

I will admit I find her a bit whiney. She comes across as quite entitled, but she was so confident that she was 100% in the right.

Obviously, I don't know the ins and outs. For all I know, she is extraordinarily productive and achieves a great deal. But as a small business owner, I was trying to get my head around simply deciding she should be paid full time to work part time, and it seemed crazy to me.

OP posts:

Banditqueen12 · 19/08/2023 16:53

If I am reading this correctly, she has been taking a full time wage and has been falsifying her hours? We wouldn't suggest that she went part-time. We'd sack her. But you know that us lot in the public sector are very "cushy" like that. It would be gross misconduct.

Aprilx · 19/08/2023 16:55

I have been a senior manager and an accountant in financial services for many years and she absolutely is taking the piss. Can they make her change her hours, no of course not. But they could dismiss on capability grounds. And I don’t care if she is very productive, if I am employing someone on a full time basis, I expect them to be productive for the full hours they are being paid for.

Health issues do not necessarily mean a disability, but even if it does here, I would suggest that the reasonable adjustment in this case would be to change to part time working.

Startrekkeruniverse · 19/08/2023 16:59

She sounds like a piss taker to me.

UsingChangeofName · 19/08/2023 17:07

What @MintJulia said.

I mean, this doesn't sound like a temporary situation - like a phased return after illness or surgery, it sounds like a piss take.

DinnaeFashYersel · 19/08/2023 17:26

She's best to call ACAS for advice rather than third hand via you to Mumsnet.

You and everyone responding will have good intentions but with so many middle women you can't be sure of the info you are giving and the response you get.

Original poster

TiredButDancing · 20/08/2023 09:32

Oh, I have no intention of discussing this again with her if I can avoid it! I was just interested in a vaguely, "surely not?!" kind of way! Our dc aren't hugely friendly so it's unlikely that there will be any chatting for a while unless I happen to run into her in the park again!

OP posts:

TurkeyHolidayPlanning · 20/08/2023 16:17

This is bizarre. Why did she ask you don you think?

Original poster

TiredButDancing · 20/08/2023 16:32

TurkeyHolidayPlanning · 20/08/2023 16:17

This is bizarre. Why did she ask you don you think?

She was ranting I think and I guess we know each other well enough? I think it clearly something active- she was talking like it was active and ongoing. And i have worked in financial services my whole career. Although of course, I'd say that's more likely to make me agree with her bosses! 😆

OP posts:

Gothambutnotahamster · 20/08/2023 16:42

She absolutely sounds like shes taking the pee & its also people like her that are making orgs mandate more return to office working!

Sisterpita · 21/08/2023 17:58

@TiredButDancing good employers are very cautious with employees who develop health issues, particularly those that may be covered by the equality act definition of disability.

However, if they act reasonably they can end up in a situation where it is obvious an employee will not be able to do a full time job and so they need to explore options.

As they have referred her to OH it sounds like they are coming to a crunch point. What is interesting is that she is claiming to do a full time role but also admitting there is a team she can’t work with and so is not doing their work. This means she is not doing 100% of the full time role.

Her employers are likely looking at a range of reasonable adjustments including reducing her hours. However, they could give her other work from different teams to make it up to a full time role.

She is trying to turn it round by focusing on outputs. If I was faced with this I would agree and then set out in writing the full time objectives/outputs she is expected to deliver. I would document how I reached what she needs to deliver by evidencing other full time roles at her level, and include tasks to replace the workload from the team she can’t work with. I would be fair and let her phase up to the workload over say 12 weeks. Having weekly/fortnightly 1:2:1s assessing progress against the agreed outputs and setting new outputs until she reached a full workload. I would also document any reasonable adjustments e.g. shorter days on the days in the office. Possibly even allowing WFH for 4 days.

It is likely she is not capable of doing full time and part of her anger will be accepting this, along with the stress of a potential drop in income. A good employer will help her to realise full time is not feasible. If she is just taking the piss this approach also works.

HTH.

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