Apprenticeship - Study Time

[Pigsearsilkpurse]

Hi all,

Could I have your thoughts on a bit of a tense discussion I have had with my manager today?

At super short notice I was bumped on to a very expensive apprenticeship as the golden child member of the team handed in her notice. The place became available and it was begrudgingly offered to me (it already had been paid for and it was a use it or lose it situation)

The apprenticeship is relevant to my role and very advantageous to both me and the business in the long run. My manager didn't offer it to me originally as she liked the golden child more (also long back story here)

So I asked about how we we going to schedule blocking out 20% study time (as you can do it in different ways) and she looked horrified. She tried to tell me that it was self study in personal time and the previous member of staff agreed to that. I had printed out the requirements and confirmed that was not the case, there is a legal requirement that the 20 percent is honoured. It was very obvious she was not pleased.

So she has blocked a day a week out as 'study time' but has kept my allocation at work at a full time level - so I have to fit in five full days of work in four (more actually, because shes peed off so is throwing extra my way to show her annoyance) and I cant find anything that says that is not allowed or is unfair.

Does anyone know if that is the case?

Note: I love the job, it got some great perks and is good money for the hours - She is leaving this team in 8 to 12 months to head up a department in another country. So it is worth holding on staying for the apprenticeship i just don't know if i can balance that workload especially if its more 12 months than eight!

I think ours is worded off the job study time. This can be used for work related activities that support the apprenticeship learning so not necessarily'study'
Not sure if I've explained that well....
doing something outside your norm that gives you stretch can then be used as evidence and count as your 20%

The apprenticeship agreement will mandate that you have 20% off the job learning . Eg 80% of fulltime hours at work, and 20% learning. She can't make you do 120%.

Get the apprenticeship people involved if you have to, they can and will tell the employer what to do they have authority.

From personal experience when I did similar years ago it was expected to study in evenings or weekends on my own time given the company were paying me to work and also paying for the qualification as crap as it is....
I applied for a trainee role in nhs recently and also discovered that all assignments etc were again expected to be done in my own time whilst still working full time. I didn't take the job in the end as I have 3 children and other caring responsibilities so did not have additional time on top of a full time role.
What type of company is it? If it's worth it for you in the long run and they are giving you a day off for study, I'd try to make it work.

Speak to your apprenticeship provider/trainer/coach. Explain what your manager is proposing.

20% can be made up of many things, self study, classroom training, online learning, etc BUT remember it can also be on-the-job learning like some ad hoc coaching or sitting next to someone for 10 minutes to learn a new task.

But going back to my earlier point, speak to your apprenticeship provider in the first instance for advice. Its in their interests too that the company are giving you the correct support & they might speak to your HR department or senior leadership for you.

currently doing an apprenticeship and also manage them. The law has changed and it’s now 6 hours minimum per week off the job.

the activities as new knowledge gained in the workplace and not just study time. The apprenticeship should be related to your role so you can log the hours in your work time and part of your role. There should have been an assessment to ensure you personally can do this.

sone of the study time is independent and in your own time. But your manager should be creative opportunities for you gain your 6 hours off the job

Thank you all for replying

My manager was very clear that she expects me to do 120% - I 'get a day off' (her words) but I will still be getting a full time workload and its down to me to make it work.

I've actually been doing this job for 6 years (The role was advertised as apprenticeship role but my manager always found reasons why it wasn't a good time to offer it to me) and most of it is WFH so I don't have the opportunity to sit with anyone else or spend time being mentored.

It actually very frustrating as this is a great opportunity, but not one i want to kill myself to do for the time she is in charge.

I would hang in and do it if it is a qualification which would give you more career leverage. When the new manager comes, try and renegotiate your time- if you can’t, at least you can finish the apprenticeship and then leave if you need to

It's a breach of the apprenticeship funding they claim from the levy to not honour the 20% off the job training but as PP have said they can be quite creative in terms of what is included within that 20%. It all has to be clearly evidenced by your apprenticeship provided in case they are ever audited so talk to them...

Requirements have changed somewhat depending on the apprenticeship type and level. When I did an Operational Management one I had to log and evidence all my 20% off the job hours. I now manage someone doing a project management apprenticeship and he doesn't have to do that anymore, but his is quite intense and there's a lot to keep up with so we do have to work together to make sure he has the time for it.

I’m coming to the end of an apprenticeship and get the 20% reduction in my working hours - I get Friday ‘off’ to study generally but I’m flexible around business needs. My boss wasn’t massively happy about it about either but I wouldn’t have taken the apprenticeship without out as I didn’t want to study in my personal time.

I am always asked by my DLC if I’m getting the off the job time when I have my reviews.

7.5 is less than 20% of 45, so her maths doesn't work.

Is there any way you can subtly offload some of your work to make time?

I'm doing a degree apprenticeship and it's bloody hard work but I'm getting a lot out of it so I'm powering my way through.

If your unsympathetic manager is leaving in 8 months I would try and hang in there until then.

My day in college counted as the off the job study time. But we had an assessor who was really on top of the record keeping for this off the job time and she dealt firmly with my manager when I was going to college on a non work day one year and insisted I got the required off the job time. Have you got anyone at your provider who could contact your manager for you? My workload wasn't really decreased & I did a lot of study in my own time but it's worth it.

I’ve gone through an apprenticeship recently, and 20% OTJ time is a requirement - but ‘off the job’ does not mean ‘out of work time’

Off-the-job training is defined as learning which is undertaken outside of day-to-day work duties and leads towards the achievement of the apprenticeship. This training takes place within the apprentice’s normal (contracted) working hours.

https://www.instituteforapprenticeships.org/raising-the-standard-best-practice-guidance/training-raising-the-standards/#:~:text=Off%2Dthe%2Djob%20training%20is,the%20achievement%20of%20the%20apprenticeship.

At the beginning of the apprenticeship there is a contract signed up between the provider, the apprentice (you) and the employers representative (your manager)
This includes an agreement that 20% of your working hours will be dedicated to learning.
Expecting you to do 20% plus 100% means that they ought to be paying you overtime

If your manager is claiming that it is not possible within the normal working week then they cannot sign off the apprenticeship contract.

I was required to log my OTJ time all of the way through the learning stages, which included the lessons, research, other learning etc plus projects to go into my portfolio - OTJ should not be normal work, but the portfolio should benefit my work, therefore I was able to use real work assignments and log them into my OTJ
(technically a project could be non work related, if the apprenticeship criteria cannot be met in role but is highly unrecommended as it then has to be justified as to why not …… and of not then the original suitabilty of the apprenticeship becomes questionable - the recommendation in such a case is to do a piece supporting another department etc or to show an ‘enhancement’ gained from the learning)

At my gateway point I, my manager and my apprenticeship mentor had to certify my OTJ log
Following gateway I still had a final project to submit - again a full piece of work contributing to the business

It is true that you will do things out of hours - but that is you fitting in to course deadlines etc and extra effort. An apprenticeship is on the job training

This was discussed, subtly with the provider yesterday afternoon. They sent a email to me, another attender and our two managers to outline the obligations for off the job work.

My manager emailed back to confirm that I have now been scheduled Friday as a OTJ day from next week. She also emailed me the tasks for the week. I would normally say I have 100 tasks for the week, next week I have 110 tasks - there has been no reduction at all.

This morning I emailed her to advise that having 120 tasks and the OTJ is working at 120% and could we discuss this with the provider as i was not sure that this is how the apprenticeship is planned out. She just fired an email back saying that she is sorely regretting allowing me to have this opportunity as i am making the whole thing hard work. Apparently I'm asking for the moon on a stick - i don't get to have a free day off and then also get less work too because it means i getting 'time off' and 'work off' so ill be double benefiting!

As others have said - 20% is off the job training. So some of your work tasks contribute towards the 20%. I found this the hard way and ended up doing the assignments etc at weekends and evenings and it got too much and had to pull out. Depending on the provider and course but you may find the 20% OFJ is you learning actually doing the job. I know it doesn't make sense - it confused me! So say I was doing an apprenticeship in nursing and I spend 30 mins a week doing blood pressure checks - that would be towards my 20%. Obviously not a real apprenticeship but to give you an idea!

Sorely regretting? Ouch.
I'd be asking for this to be reviewed. Ask her to get it confirmed. You should be doing 80% not 120%. She shot herself in the foot by putting it in writing, rather than just saying it verbally.

The provider has confirmed that 'actual work' can count towards OTJ time - so it makes it a moot point. I kinda makes the whole ring fenced protection of the 20% Study time unenforceable. However in other news the job shes been waiting on is going forwards so shes going to be out of the office for quite a bit getting things set up. So my actual manager will go back to being my manager and has already taken some the workload to 'dip her toe back in the water'

Thank goodness!

I would actually raise this with your HR department. I would list your expected workload you had before you began your apprenticeship and your current work load. If it has not been reduced, you can explain that you have spoken to your TP and they have suggested you speak to the LM but nothing has changed. Explain that according to the apprenticeship rules this is not allowed.
Unfortunately, a lot of people feel that apprentices should do work in their own time, but this is against the rules… personally, I thought it was ok to do some work outside work hours but would not expect to do ALL apprenticeship work in own time

Apprenticeships are difficult these days, since they changed to standards from frameworks. If employers want to put employees on apprenticeships, they must support them with the time and exposure to the Knowledge Skills and Behaviours they’ll need to demonstrate at end point to gain the apprenticeship. I would definitely involve hr as you need the support of your line manager all the way through and if she’s acting like this now, it will only get harder when you have assignments and end point assessment to do.

some employers hr departments set the managers targets for getting employees on the apprenticeship (so they can claim back the levy), and really it’s in yours, hrs and your line managers interest that the whole thing is successful and you don’t withdraw due to lack of support.

maybe your training provider can help but in my experience they struggle to convince employers. The employers /hr need to filter this through too down.