To steal someones job

[thejobsnatcher]

Thread title for views, but some truth in it!
I'm an ambitious retail director; good at what I do, and my stores outperform all others in the business.
Another retail director is also good at their job, not madly ambitious or creative but gets the job done. They have a store that I want. It's a big one, has huge potential, isn't being marketed particularly well, and could be much more profitable.
I think the board would prefer I have this store as I am frequently asked for my views on big decisions about it and strategic questions I ask trigger wider meetings and activity.
I have a yearly review coming up and I want to ask for the store. It would challenge, excite and motivate me, and open up a pathway to a bigger salary. I know the business values me and I could probably 'demand' it to stay. The other RD would not be demoted or lose salary or potential earnings but would lose team members and would need to backfill projects/stores from my side, and generally, it would be quite humiliating (probably too strong a word but you get the idea).
It feels a bit cut throat. I'm not immediately comfortable with the idea of hurting this person and also giving the board this massive headache. What would you do? And how should I approach it?

I agree it's fine to say at your appraisal that you are looking for new challenge within your current store or the wider company. But it would be poor form to say you want to push some identified individual out of their job.

If you’re being asked for advice which is then being implemented at this ( and other? ) stores, then don’t waste your time going for another ( slightly bigger ) job at the same level, go one higher where your knowledge and analytical skills can benefit all stores.

what is your plan if you ask for this bigger store and they say ‘we’ll think about it’ or even ‘ we don’t think you’re ready for that yet’ ?

Is that you Boris?

Are you a woman? I think most men would do this without hesitation, and see it as healthy competition. Sounds like in some senses your time and effort are being exploited without the commensurate reward/ recognition of formally being the best, in the best position. Ie you are partly doing the other person's job for them, and rewards from performance improvement for that bigger store will likely go to them rather than you.

Sounds a bit too like being exploited/invisible work / thanks for all your talent and hard work, but we're not going to formally reward or recognize it'.... These are patterns that women put up with a lot in the interests of being the good guy/ not being competitive/ not having sharp elbows.

The book 'why women don't ask' is a bit old now, but sobering reading. We negotiate salary less, ask for promotions less, put ourselves up for opportunities less, claim credit where it is due less, get rewarded less.....

I think at very least make sure they acknowledge the value you put in, and that you expect to be properly rewarded not just for the impact in your own store but across the business, and that you are ready and wanting more responsibility. If it is true you might go elsewhere if you don't get more responsibility/ more scope to make a difference then say so.

Yes!

Honestly, if you are as good as you think you are then I am confused why you would be asking random people on the internet how to handle this.

Frankly, op, if all your advice on strategy and "big" decisions haven't made an impact so far, what makes you think it would be different with you in role?

I think most men would do this without hesitation, and see it as healthy competition.

Well, the op doesn't have to sink to their level

Just because men do something, doesn't mean it's superior to what women do. Or ethical. Or moral. Or effective.

I don't think promoting the view that replicating stereotypical male behaviour is an aspirational "upgrade" is helpful, to anyone.

If you were a man you’d just ask. Or more likely, you’d already have been offered it. And already be on more money.

Fuck it. Do it. They can only say no.

Indeed. I also think this is men-bashing (so popular on MN). I know plenty of men (and women) who are very successful in their careers but maintain their integrity and wouldn't stoop to what the OP is considering.

Leaving men aside for the moment there's markedly different behaviour once you move into more senior management.
As 'regular' staff you will generally keep your job unless you perform abysmally or are made redundant (nothing to do with the role itself!). Of course, companies can manufacture certain scenarios to get rid of people if they really want to, but that's a huge faff and not generally done.

Someone at OP's level however will have to 'fight for their lunch'. It's more like running your own business, you have different compensation packages directly tied to performance etc. More importantly, you have 'general' management skills , so you will be moved to wherever the business needs you, put on different projects, there is no strict JD because how you add value to the business is more fluid.

Also unlike in lower level roles there really isn't room for 'plodders' - i.e. people who do a good but not exceptional job. In fact it is a manager's dream to have people like that, if everyone was ambitious nobody would do the actual work and these people are often content but have lots of organisational knowledge etc. Win-win!

Returning to the sexes - nobody, man nor woman would outright ask for 'someone else's job'. Or throw them under the bus. But men wouldn't even consider the impact to somebody else. Say they asked for a better role... and got given the bigger store. They wouldn't see it as their fault that the current manager got demoted. After all it is said manager's fault for underperforming (barring extenuating circumstances).

It's mostly women who fret about unfairness. Why? Your only concern is your own job. Especially as discussed earlier the OP is ALREADY getting involved. So she needs to be rewarded appropriately.

Or the book 48 laws of power or 33 strategies of war.

By the sounds of it the Board aren't comfortable with the prospect either. They have to see their organisation as a whole and this would probably rock the boat.

So things are jogging along nicely at this store. There's always a risk with change and upheaval and perhaps the Board just don't want to take it (regardless of how well you appear to be performing).

I think most men would do this without hesitation, and see it as healthy competition.

Like that's a recommendation. Depends, OP. Are you happy for someone to do that to you because they think they can do your job better than you can?

But men wouldn't even consider the impact to somebody else

And that's not a recommendation, either. Still, this has confirmed to me that managers are fundamentally not pleasant people to be around.

Indeed. I also think this is men-bashing (so popular on MN). I know plenty of men (and women) who are very successful in their careers but maintain their integrity and wouldn't stoop to what the OP is considering.

I agree there is plenty men-bashing on Mumsnet, but this isn't that. The people drawing comparisons to men's way of thinking about business are suggesting that we could benefit from at least considering adopting some aspects of this mentality. They are highlighting that men and women tend to approach these dilemmas from different paradigms due to their socialisation. It is not being critical of men.

The post a few posts ago about upper management is very true. This is a money-making business around sales, and the best people at generating sales should be in the best positions. There are no jobs for life, and people are frequently repositioned to suit business needs or if they aren't having great impact in their position.

I agree (and virtually everybody does) that you would not phrase a request in terms of taking somebody else's job, but there is a sweet spot between that, and submissively accepting wherever management wants to keep you without voicing your ambition or being properly rewarded or promoted in line with your value.

Knowing your value, being ambitious, expecting to be rewarded and promoted for what you achieve, and thinking more about your own career path rather than taking care of other people, whose results you are not responsible for, is not unethical.

Sorry, I’m really distracted by imagining which store this is, anyone else?

Greggs?

Instead of asking for that store ask for a promotion to a role that oversees a number of stores including that one and your own if they already are relying on you for strategy decisions.

What does the store sell? What are the big decisions? How is the other Director lacking? Some examples would help. I work in life and death situations so understanding the world of store management is beyond me. I always remember the saying ‘Watch who you screw on the way up because you will see them on the way down’ or something like that.

Don’t work in business so may be talking rubbish BUT steal someone’s job seems like overly emotive language for what you describe.

if a friend came to you for advice with this scenario- what would you say to them?

Knowing your value, being ambitious, expecting to be rewarded and promoted for what you achieve, and thinking more about your own career path rather than taking care of other people, whose results you are not responsible for, is not unethical.

In your opinion. Not everyone shares such an extremely individualistic belief system.

But men wouldn't even consider the impact to somebody else.

Bold claim. Not sure that baselessly declaring men to be sociopaths furthers your point.

I wouldn't ask for the specific store but say you need a bigger challenge, something similar to X store.

If the board wanted you there specifically, they'd have made it happen already.

Let's consider two different scenarios:
a) OP directly asks for bigger store manager's job
b) OP points out that she is already being leant on to help bigger store and wants to be formally recognised for it. As a result the portfolios are reshuffled.

a) is bad. b) is not.
Because, in b), her superiors could have done any number of things. They could give OP a bigger role above the store manager for example. They chose not to. That is their prerogative.

As I have already explained (but you choose to cherry pick quotes) most people regardless of gender would feel bad doing a).
But b), disproportionately women. Although it is not our fault.

There's plenty of research on how women are socialised to be people pleasers, from over-apologising to feeling excessive guilt for things that aren't their fault. Also lots of research showing that women don't ask for what they are entitled to.

I would think expecting people to work for free and not rewarding them is the unpleasant behaviour, not the other way around...

What's a retail director? Like a regional manager for a chain of stores?

Exactly!
I'm glad to see that there are other clued up women. Who have experience of the OP's sort of role.