How much sick leave will an employer tolerate?

[Sunshine543]

I know every workplace and job will be different but I'm getting myself very worried and would like some advice if anyone knows?
My husband had a breakdown last year and had 6 months off work. He has been on a phased return for another 6 months doing reduced workload and 100% working from home . So currently not been able to work properly for a year.
He is in senior management and has a team of 5 people who report to him.

At this moment in time he is worse then he was originally due to a number of reasons and he feels he needs more time off. He has been trying to work as best has he can , currently doing about 10% of what his original high paying job was. But its causing him huge stress and he isn't functioning well and needs a break.
He's mentioned the time of 6 weeks to me but that's how it started before and ended up just extending it and extending it for 6 months.
Firstly will he even get paid this time? Secondly how much are they going to tolerate of this when he can't give them any guarantees that he will ever get better ?
They are paying him a high wage for doing nothing , and no-one else is doing his job whilst he's off. His team and everyone else have just managed without him and I am sure they are just used to him not being there

OP if the company has referred to their own insurance that is really promising. Many companies have PHI which often pays people for months or even years a good proportion of their wage. If this is offered it’s a good thing! I would get your DH to ask for more information from HR regarding the reference to insurance.

Yes occupational health are involved but he's just been telling them that things are alright really, they don't know the reality of it as he's just been trying to keep going hoping he'll start to feel better

But if he had been honest with them they could have worked out whether there was a realistic plan to be put in place.

Lying to OH isn't going to help this.

The mental health team need to take a few courses in employment law - or stop giving people shit advice! Dismissing somebody on capability, with or without a disability, because they cannot do their job, is perfectly legal.

Nobody can tell you what this particular employer would do. One critical test in law is whether any contractual sick pay has been exhausted - that is company sick pay, and would include any payments made to top up wages on a phased return. Basically, if there is a contractual right to sick pay, an employer can begin the process to dismiss, but should not actually dismiss until (at least) that entitlement has been exhausted. If company sick pay is discretionary, or it is SSP only, this condition does not apply.

Being honest, I would be surprised if any employer was willing to allow this situation to continue / to lapse into another period of sick leave for the same reason, even if some or all of that leave was unpaid. I'm afraid I'd have to say that my own employer would definitely have started the process to dismiss by now, and they are far from being unsympathetic.

In terms of his personal position, were he to resign then it would not impact on benefits (as some people have suggested). The DWP are not quite that heartless, and resignation for good reasons - like being too ill to do the job / return to the job - is accepted. That said, he would be in a better position to allow a dismissal to take place - if they are happy to continue paying him, then he may as well take the pay until they are not happy!

Given the length of time that he has been this ill, you should perhaps start thinking about things like applying for PIP (which is not means tested). It's not always easy, and it can be time-consuming in terms of getting the application right or appealing if refused - but it is money for him when and if the employment ends, and money which does not impact on benefits.

I'd expect that after a year, if there's no improvement, they'll move to eventual dismissal on ill health capability grounds. I. I've whether he has much sick pay entitlement (although obviously depends on the company) so even if he's not dismissed he could end up on zero pay.

But really what you should be thinking is what's best for him. Wouldn't stepping away give him the best chance of recovery?

Sorry to hear your DH is so unwell.

I work in OH.
Despite having a long term condition and being covered by the Discrimination act an employee still needs to be medically well enough to carry out the job role, with reasonable adjustments if necessary. So his MH team have given him incorrect advice.

Most employers after this many months of illl health are going to want a definite timescale of when the person will be fit enough to do their job and if that can't be given then will look to dismissal on the grounds of Iil health.

I'm assuming it's a private company that has an insurance policy where people declared permanently or long term unfit to do their job can claim on. It's usually about 60% of salary for 5 years. His HR will have to submit the medical evidence to the insurance company so for this he will have to be VERY honest with OH as he will need their support to claim in this. I've never known a company pay sick pay beyond a year., that's why many large companies have these insurance policies

Has he had any therapy? I mean decent in depth therapy not a quick 6 week course?
I have mental illness and have had 5 hospital stays. I had many periods of being out of work, going back to soon then being out again. I never had longer than 2 months off at a time however. Things didn't improve until I got the proper therapy that I needed. I have also tried medications that have made things MUCH worse (one increased my anxiety at work because it was causing such bad brain fog).
I used to find my job very stressful (NHS scientist), but over many years have begun to deal with this better. I also went part time and have Wednesdays off which is a much needed bit of headspace).
If you haven't yet sought therapy I would suggest finding a good private therapist as one last chance. Especially if he is on a slow return to work as they can work through things gradually. Medication only masks the issues, it doesn't cure the thinking patterns that lead to stress.
My therapist once asked me if I would be less stressed if I sought a different job elsewhere and I realised that it probably wouldn't improve things because I would find other things to be stressed about.

He mustn't resign without exploring the income protection insurance that his company has! That would be a potentially catastrophic financial decision.

But it does sound as though he should explore- and allow himself to start considering- an alternative life where he isn't trying to get back through a phased return to where he was. If there is an income protection payable and he qualifies he could take a few years to really sort himself out with no work or financial pressure. Reading what you write, it seems to me as though that might be an improvement on the current situation. And better for his team too.

Are you able to return to the same job after you've used the income protection?
It's a really difficult situation, obviously he can't go on as he is , but also of he finished for a long period again it actually makes him worse, he doesn't leave the house, see or speak to anyone or even move around the house. Just sits on the sofa all day. He does not use the time wisely , just sits there day after day.
I cannot think of any other Job he could do at all. He used to do warehouse work, he couldn't do that now as he's exhausted mentally and physically all the time and has allowed himself to become very unfit and overweight. He would not want to do anything that was working with other people or with the public as he just wants to work from home and be by himself . I can't see a solution going forward apart from the insurance pay and hope and pray that at some point he gets better

Not quite true. They can dismiss him if he cannot do his job anymore - they would have to go through a full capability process. This would be considered 'justified discrimination'. So it depends on his employer. They could move him to a different role as an option before that though.

Obviously it depends on the organisation, but where I work (local govt), he’d definitely be gently ‘managed out’ at this point.

Can you manage financially with just your salary OP?
I think this is important to know as advice will be different depending on your financial situation.

Most places won't continue to pay sick pay after a year. Often it drops to 50% after a few months and then to zero.
It sounds like DH employer is being unusually generous with pay though so that's good news. Is he in a Union? What do they say?

Unfortunately changes of medication can take months to wash out the old drug, titrate the new one and evaluate its effect so it's very easy for months to slide past whilst this is going on.

This has happened a couple of times in my workplace where the absence went over a year.

In both cases the employer was offered a "package" to leave amicably. They were offered approx 6 months salary to basically leave quietly, or they would be dismissed as unable to do the job.

I know it was a long process with both HR and legal team involved. In both cases the period of leave was indefinite so there was no sign of the employee being able to return in the foreseeable.

I know somebody that was off for a year due to depression/stress. After six months it was paid via income protection insurance.

The problems were due to a bullying manager and various people had quit their jobs because of her, so I think the company was trying very carefully to avoid any legal action.

He's now back at work with a new manager.

With regards to OP's husband, getting out of the house, becoming more active and losing some weight might work wonders.

There is also some evidence that ice baths are more effective than antidepressants, so that might be worth a try as an additional home therapy.

OP my partner had similar circumstances to your DH. An agreement was reached with his previous employer after about two periods of 7 months each.

With regards to Income Protection, definitely explore that option. He was paid from the insurance for the time he was off (it’s usually after a certain amount of weeks) and was able to resume his normal duties for a time. The outcome also didn’t affect him getting another job.

His company would have a policies on sick leave and performance management- this will detail the process. Company sick pay is usually tied to length of service then Statutory Pay kicks in which is substantially lower.
Under performance management they can dismiss or put to work in another post that could be lower pay. If he has reports he's obviously not line managing them.

So he was originally the line manager to 5 people and also the head of what he does of 6 uk sites, and 6 worldwide sites. So a lot of responsibility. The job required travel to the different sites and daily contact with everyone.
Eso his initial absence was for 6 months, most of this was full pay then dropped to ssp. He then went back on a phased return and it has stayed that way for another 6 months. He has been receiving full pay during his phased return.
His manager and also hr agreed that someone else would temporarily take over the 5 staff so they report to someone else now. He also had his objectives vastly reduced. They also said that he could work from home rather than go in to the office, and there would be no expectation for any foreign travel. So a drastic reduction of everything basically.

The biggest problem is obviously he doesn't want to give up his hard earned career but he is the only earner in our home which puts pressure on him. I say pressure but it was originally self inflicted. I don't want to get into it on here because its not relevant right now but he did not want me to work. He earned plenty to pay for everything comfortably and I have cared 100% for the children, house and elderly parents one of which i am a registered carer for.
I am now also classed as my husbands carer . Obviously I will find a job if that time comes but right now I am keeping everything running smoothly. The only reason he hasn't been hospitalised is because I am here. I have to keep a close eye on him all the time and I am the main point of contact with the mental health team . Its all Just a nightmare
I've spoken to him about all this today, and urged him to think carefully about his next move. He has arranged a meeting with work on Friday

Would he be able to take early retirement on health grounds?

This. My ex boss was dismissed after having over 1 year of sick leave.

As a small business owner, situations like this are my worst nightmare. You've have to have a heart of stone not to sympathise and want to help, but it's also a huge commitment to carry on paying NI, pension contributions and accrued leave when you've got no idea if that person is ever likely to be able to work again. We had to dismiss on grounds of capability last year when someone's MH was no better after 6 months of leave and they also then had some ongoing physical ailments on top of that due to self neglect. It felt like a vicious circle, in truth.

I would honestly focus on just getting him well again, and removing a very large amount of stress - if your finances allow it.

Hi OP sorry to hear that you are in such a tough situation. I have personal experience of being on long term sickness absence (in my case due to progressive physical disability) and my employer followed their long term absence policy. The culmination of which was dismissal on grounds of incapability, which was completely within the employers rights and compliant with equalities act. What really helped me was having a wonderful Union rep (I was
a Union member) who supported and advised me throughout, and really knew what they were talking about re employment rights. I was advised not to resign but go through the capability hearing as that way the employer has to pay for the contracted notice period. Horrible though it is,there has to come a point where further extending absence cannot be sustained by the employer.

Your DH and you are going through a lot OP but I agree with this wholeheartedly.

OK update, spoken to them today. They were already going to speak to him about it as they had noticed this week he wasn't right.
They have recommended the health insurance, the one that they use pays 55% of your wage for an unlimited time, and is assessed on an annual basis and she can't see how he would not be accepted as he's very obviously poorly.
This is a relief in one way, although 55% is not enough to pay our bills, but the only concern which I thought all along is that he wouldn't have the same job to go back to if any at all