Chaotic, emotional manager: what to do?

[Eatstootsandleaves]

At the end of March I took a 20 hour pw admin job at a local college. I'm trying to care for my terminally ill mum and this seemed ideal. I report to two managers. One is fine, friendly and professional. Most things are done electronically and I seldom see her.

The other is the opposite and I find her increasingly unnerving. From day one she's talked at me intensely, leaping from one subject to another and oversharing wildly. She comes in every morning and we spend perhaps ten minutes discussing events of the previous day, what needs doing etc. Then if she hasn't got anything lined up immediately, she sits on the corner of my desk and talks and talks and talks. She also cries on an almost daily basis — things she's seen on TV, things her daughter and husband have said, things she's read. She's sometimes there in this hyper-emotional state talking at me for 40 minutes at a time. I have strategies, like trying to book things so that she doesn't have the time to talk, or leaving the office to go and do something or working while she talks. I do regularly say that I've got a lot to do and need to get on but she doesn't usually take the hint.

I don't engage: if I engage it usually ends up getting even more strange. On the first day we met she told me she had five children. I said 'Wow, five children, they must keep you busy.' The next day when she was complaining about how much laundry she has to do, I commented that it was no wonder, with five children — and she immediately said she had four children, where did I get the idea she had five? 'Misunderstandings' like that have happened regularly, not just involving her personal life but also work issues. She's given me dates and times to book rooms or events or arrange for certain people to be available and then later contradicted her own instructions.

She's been off for a week and I've really enjoyed my break from her. I'm dreading tomorrow morning. I've had a discreet word with a couple of other colleagues and when I mention the talking they roll their eyes. One said she'd got a lot worse recently and has hinted that that was why the person previously in my role left.

I don't know what I'm asking from anyone who might be reading this. I'm doing things like keeping notes and trying to get her to put every request in writing, so that if she denies she's asked for something I'll at least have the evidence to assure myself that it's not me, it's her. Has anyone else encountered a comparable situation? In previous jobs I've taken issues to HR to ask for advice but after only 10 weeks in the job I'm not sure it's going to look good to complain about a manager having very leaky boundaries.

You say you've talked to a few other colleagues but have you talked to your other manager? What did they say? Especially if flaky manager's difficulties is causing you issues in doing your work to a good standard for professional manager.

Maybe breaking it down into three chunks makes it more managable:

1. The personal stuff - I would just back right off, grey rock, just respond by saying the blandest thing or change the subject. Don't try and get to know her or remember things about 5 children or stuff because she is obviously a bit off somewhere there. Don't comfort her when she cries or make a big deal of it, just think to yourself that it's her way of dealing with big feelings I guess. If she doesn't get a reaction from you she will hopefully give up but you will have to hold fast for quite some time.

2. The contradictory requests - sounds like you're doing all you can on that, cover your back, get stuff in writing, keep notes, send follow-up emails confirming conversations immediately after every verbal request. And then accept she might change her mind later and just can't admit fault.

3. The talking and distraction - a few minutes in the morning is just part of being in an office unfortunately, but don't get drawn in and answer with "closing down" answers. "Yeah it was a quiet weekend, didn't do much" etc. Is there a way you can then use other manager to move her along? So instead of "I have to get on" it's an actual concrete appointment "Oh I have to jump on a zoom call with other manager" - "oh other manager needs me to get this to her by 9.30am, sorry sandra have to work now now, speak later on yeah?". And then put headphones on. Don't wait for her to take the hint.

All things you've probably tried already but the solution is probably just to keep doing what you're doing, but be even more direct.

It's amazing isn't it that the people who have the hide of a rhino when dropping hints are also the ones who are the most sensitive to slights but you're just going to have to be more direct than you've been - no more hints.

I agree with the above. I might suggest talking to HR too though – you can be very honest and say you're concerned about the 'look' of going to them so early on, but calmly and with concrete examples explain why.

Thanks for the acknowledgements.

I don't know how to explain what's going on except to say it's nothing to do with normal office chat or banter. I've worked in offices for years and there is usually someone who could talk to hind leg off a donkey or a drama queen who demands attention, but this is different. It's a torrent of unfiltered 'stuff'. It's not a conversation or a chat. No eye contact, no acknowledgement that I exist. It feels as if she's purging her emotions and the random contents of her head all over me. She doesn't expect me to remember what she's said, or be able to make sense of what she's saying, which is a good thing because she contradicts herself all the time.

She was back this morning after a week off. I think I now know all about the holiday, including quite a lot I wish I didn't. One of the children had food poisoning and I really didn't need to know the details. I told her so but she was on auto-pilot and I'm not sure she even heard me.

The weather is lovely and today she was wearing a short wrap dress that showed quite a lot of cleavage and kept falling open at the front. I didn't quite see her underwear but it was a close thing. She had face to face sessions with a couple of students she's assessing and it didn't seem appropriate.

I'm careful not to say anything to other staff about what's going on. I don't gossip. But it feels really challenging, working with someone whose boundaries seem so off.

Sounds a nightmare. In addition to the suggestions above, if she is actually just dumping this stuff and not much interested in any engagement so the you, what about headphones? Nice big chunky noise cancelling ones. It both signals “I’m not available to talk” and also just drowns her chatter out

I am waiting for a poster to suggest that the manager is neurodiverse.

Do you have HR ?
if so you MUST go to see them.

write down all the incidents over last week or 2, and now keep a diary

raise it with HR as YOUR issue, not hers

1. hpw would they advise you to handle the situation when you are getting changing objectives. You are now writing down what you’ve been tasked with at the time, but obviously as new person are in a difficult position when she then says she asked for something different. What do they suggest is best way for you to deal with this?
2. you are finding the daily conversations too much in terms of your time management. These conversations are happening on daily basis for a total of x mins (show evidence of diary where you’ve logged) and you are frustrated it is affecting your performance, particularly as you are new. I’d even ask, ever so naively, if this is part of your job description to participate in these conversations , and if not how they can support you in getting them stopped
3. you are finding the level of emotional response “triggering”. You do not know how to handle her daily tears and personal emotional conflicts (again show you are logging the incidences) and it is causing you stress. Ask them what you need to do to do to stop being in this situation

if they’re vague and say stuff like is posted here about walking away, say you have tried that. It is not working. It is affecting your performance, and you need active intervention to ensure you can meet your objectives and pass any probabation (if that applies), say you are stressed. That’s important as they have duty of care. Doesn’t matter if you aren’t actually stressed- you will be if it continues, and you’re worried enough to be posting here

this is an issue for HR to get a grip on. Do not accuse your colleague, make a personal opinion or judgement, talk about “I AM” or “I feel” only. Do not speculate why she is doing this, or hint at any suggestion that she has mental health issues, just say here’s what’s happening, I am concreted about impact on my performance, I feel this when put in this situation. Stay unemotional, empathetic and professional

Oh, and as an aside, it will never work having 2 managers. Never work for a company or organisation that doesn’t understand difference between responsibility and accountability
2 managers may be responsible for setting your tasks
BUT, only one person can be accountable overall for you meeting your objectives, dealing with HR issues like this, managing your sick leave, holidays, pay awards, performance review.
You Will never be anything but stressed in an environment where you have to report to 2 managers and there is no single accountability for your reporting line to a single person.

I find it gobsmacking the number of idiotic companies and organisations that don’t actually understand this, and then wonder why they have staff on sick leave and high turnover. 🤦‍♀️

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, the thing about having two managers occurred to me before I took the job, but I was more focussed on getting the role than worrying about the management structure. I was interviewed by the 'easy' manager and she seemed very nice so I didn't foresee this situation.

Today my she came in early to run through a couple of things that need scheduling. When my 'complicated' manager arrived 'Easy' left very quickly. There's no pretence of getting on.

'Complicated' manager was wearing a very low-cut strappy silk top with a lot of cleavage on display and bra straps visible. We have a high proportion of students from parts of the world where that much exposed flesh would be considered unacceptable and it doesn't seem very respectful towards them.

Unless things get worse I'll give it till the end of term and then speak to HR when things aren't so fraught and I have a bit more time under my belt. Thank you for the advice on the best way to frame the issue. There's one, possibly two, suitable vacancies being flagged on the internal mail system so I'm going to check them out. It won't look good, seeking to move after only three months in the job. What a mess.

I thought I'd update the situation. A couple of weeks ago I made an informal enquiry about another admin role elsewhere in the college. The hours didn't suit me as well as my current hours so I asked if there was any flexibility before I applied.

This seems to have triggered a reaction from my 'easy' manager and HR. Easy manager called me in for an informal chat and asked me how things were going. I said that I was finding it quite challenging, being managed by two people with very different styles and expectations, and that I had days when I found it almost impossible to complete all my work in time and to a standard I was happy with. She asked me whether I had any feedback for her and I said no, I found her very professional and easy to deal with. I asked her for feedback and she was positive. Which left the elephant in the room. There was a very long silence and I said that as someone who was dealing with quite a heavy load on the home front, and as a part-timer who needed to make each hour count, I was finding it difficult to juggle my work and the emotional expectations that 'complicated' manager expected. I said I found it emotionally exhausting. Easy manager has walked in once or twice and encountered my 'complicated' manager sitting on my desk, off-loading at length and she asked me whether that was a regular occurrence. I confirmed that it was.

@Florissante, she may well be neurodiverse. She's a specialist who works with students with all kinds of learning challenges and perhaps she's good at that because she's different. But when she's around me I'd prefer it if we could just be friendly and professional and focus on the work, not on her.

Wow - interesting development. When you said that it was a regular occurrence, what did Easy Manager say? What was the outcome of the meeting - do you think Easy Manager will go back and give Complicated Manager a talking-to?

I have no idea what 'Easy' manager will do. I'm hoping she'll go back to HR and raise an issue about me finding two managers hard to deal with. I've put in my application for the other job, though I think it may have been earmarked for someone else. The thing about being a part-timer is that you tend to be out of the loop.

'Complicated' manager has booked a month off work for the whole of August to spend time with her children so that feels like a relief. She was in tears yesterday talking about the students killed in Nottingham. Her son's going to Newcastle University in the autumn and she's been looking up crime statistics and terrifying herself. Today she was crying because it was the anniversary of her cat's death. I though it must have died last year, but it turned out to have been some years ago. She showed me the video of its funeral. I keep having 'Is this really happening?' moments.

I think you might need to not emphasise the two managers thing as that sounds like a "you problem" - and this is definitely NOT a you problem!!! If you had two managers like Easy Manager you'd be fine.

The issue is that Complicated Manager is behaving really unprofessionally, IMO. The two managers thing is only relevant in that the behaviour of one manager is affecting your work performance for the other. However this is really difficult for you to deal with at your level so the two managers need to thrash this out between them (and/or with HR), leaving you out of it.

She sounds more like she’s got severe MH issues. That or she’s just a neurotic, attention-seeker who calls herself an “empath”. Ugh!

'Complicated' manager wasn't in work today. A guy from 'complicated' manager's team called in to see me and tell me that she was going to have the whole summer off and he'd be standing in until she returns at the end of September. I asked if she was okay and he just smiled and changed the subject. This is so unlike anywhere else I've ever worked, where we had larger open-plan offices and news travelled fast. I'm tucked away in my own office in a building that's a bit out of the way from the main offices so I feel quite cut off at times.

Things are getting very quiet now. Term's over and most of the students are gone. I have a fortnight's holiday booked for the end of July/ beginning of August. I suspect it's going to be a very quiet couple of months.

That's good OP. Focus on your job and a well deserved break

'Complicated' manager was wearing a very low-cut strappy silk top with a lot of cleavage on display and bra straps visible. We have a high proportion of students from parts of the world where that much exposed flesh would be considered unacceptable and it doesn't seem very respectful towards them. Now we see you! Judgy perhaps? Why should she cover up for men?

@Getoutofherenow might have been covering up for women.

Why are you assuming that 'students' means men? How sexist of you!

Plus the top sounds unsuitable for an office, regardless of the religion/cultural expectations of the students.

@Getoutofherenow oh give over 'now we see you' what do you mean?

What are you talking about? I'm not assuming students are all men. We have a lot of modestly dressed students of both sexes and various nationalities and faiths here. Why do you think only men might find it uncomfortable sitting alone in a room with a woman with a significant amount of cleavage exposed and with her skirt open to her thighs? I think I would have found it weird when I was a student. Her outfit was fine for a night out or a party, but not the kind of thing most people would think appropriate for work.

So sorry OP that you've had to go through this. I had similar in my previous role in the same company I'm still in, and I have never experienced anything like it before or since. The strangest bit for me was exactly like how you described with the "chat" being utterly one sided and more like a stream of consciousness. It would go on intermittently for a cumulative total of around 2 hours and it never seemed to matter how uninterested I sounded. Worse still they would repeat the same few stories often so at the end of my time with them I had heard all of their anecdotes many times over.

I don't know what makes people so incredibly self absorbed and selfish but I know this person treated everyone she could like this. And everything was high drama, anything work related was always a conflict. She even did the same thing as your manager did with telling me instructions or even doing something herself and then blaming me for it!!

Truthfully I don't know if there is any way to change these people. I'm glad you're getting some peace now.

@CandlelightGlow , thank you so much for taking the time to post. It's a relief to hear that I'm not alone in the world dealing with this. It really is far, far beyond the standard office chatterbox or drama diva, isn't it? And very unnerving working for a manager who tells you she wants you to do something and when you've done it tells you she would never have asked you to do that.

There were days when things were so surreal that I wondered if I was having a nervous breakdown or hallucinationing. She'd leave the room after a long, weepy monologue and I'd be sitting there thinking that no one would behave like that at work — so was I imagining it? I'd got to the point of planning to record her on my phone so that I could listen to it away from the office and check if it really was as disturbing as it seemed when I was there in the room.

What happened to your manager? I was discussing admin stuff with a colleague in Admissions the other day and the person I was talking to said 'I hear (Complicated Manager) is signed off again...' I confirmed that she was off for the summer and said 'Is this a regular thing with her?' She said yes, it wasn't unusual and that life would be easier for me for a couple of months. I try not to gossip so I didn't ask any more, but in this situation I'm desperate to find someone who'll tell me the background story and what's going on.

I’m glad you’ve spoken up - this lady may well benefit from some counseling by the sounds of it or at least some discussion on social norms.

I would enjoy the summer and see what happens next year when or if she returns - generally people like this tend to find some other opportunities and a moved on -

Goos luck and thanks for coming back. Do let us know when you’re brave enough to ask the right questions.

She's a qualified counsellor herself. She also heads a team of qualified counsellors. One of the things that's felt so strange is that none of them appears to have noticed anything odd going on.

Bless you, and yeah I completely understand how disorienting it is to work so closely with someone like that. My partner was getting concerned on my behalf because I was constantly in such a state of frustration and upset at the end of each day. I had begun to dread Mondays and the sound of my work phone ringing was giving me a physical reaction.

I know it sounds dramatic, but it really is difficult isn't it, to work with someone who acts so out of sync with social norms, let alone professional social norms. I felt genuinely a bit like I was in an emotionally abusive relationship; on one hand she tried to portray our relationship as being confidants, and on easy things she would be supportive. Yet at the same time she would deliberately misunderstand my pretty simple requests and copy in managers to her faux confused response, would also copy in senior managers into emails criticising my work (which was especially awful as she was often totally incorrect and there was no problem in the first place), doing minor admin things incorrectly and them blaming me (I genuinely think she didn't realise some of the things she did and when she noticed the error, was too big headed to realise it could have been her), constantly re-explaining basic tasks to me in a patronising way if I did things slightly differently to her (but achieved the same results).... I could go on!

My one is still in the org, though we were a tiny team and I was the only person who was a grade under her, so I think she probably no longer has line manager responsibility now I have left. I don't know if people like that will ever change, as it's not really tangible behaviour people can point to and black and white* *say, "this is unacceptable", if that makes sense?