Does any of this constitute Gross Misconduct?

[FishHeadsAndTales]

Under the category of threatening and intimidating behaviour?

Physically lunging at someone. Right up in their face. Swearing, extremely aggressive tone. Finger pointing right in face. Followed by shouted threats to beware of making an enemy of person shouting because there will be consequences?

So, do tell, why were you persistently interfering when asked politely not to?

It's clearly unprofessional and unwarranted behaviour. Whether it's gross misconduct will be determined by an investigation. It's not usually a snap decision.

Sorry you experienced this and I hope you have support to work safely from now on.

Sounds like it was misconduct.

I wouldn't take the advice to call the Police though.

I think you have it the wrong way round @FishHeadsAndTales was the one being approached and then threatened.

In various places I have worked there would have been different responses. In some places this would be brushed under the carpet. In other places this would be treated as misconduct and a warning issued.

Sadly, that it was done in a public place would probably be considered the greater problem - bringing the company into disrepute.

Apologies if my explanation was not clear enough.

The person who threatened ME was constantly interfering with MY work. I asked them to stop, and then the incident happened.

Yes I can’t that threatening behaviour wouldn’t fall under gross misconduct. The outcome for that member of staff will depend on any mitigations they can present and if this is a one off or has happened before so the outcome could be a warning or dismissal

• can’t think

When did this happen OP? Have you worked with this person since?

This exact same thing happened to me (I was the one being shouted at, lunged at, the other person's face one inch from mine). For disagreeing with them about something trivial. I knew the person had MH issues (everyone in the office did). A team leader rushed up and dragged them away. I was taken in a quiet room by my team leader and asked how I was. I said I was fine, a bit shook up. I made it clear that I didn't want the person to lose their job, and I said if I was asked to give a statement that might lead to the person's dismissal I would conveniently 'forget' what had happened. But I wanted them to get help. The person went off sick for weeks and when they came back (very changed) told me they had finally been given a diagnosis of bipolar disorder and had been on meds which had changed them. They said 'at last I know what it is'. Their partner of 2 years left them because of they couldn't handle 'being with an officially mentally ill person'. The person then had a meeting with a senior manager who said that they had come 'this close' (index finger and thumb a quarter inch apart) to dismissal for gross misconduct. They were told to religiously stick to meds and appointments, and that their job was hanging by a thread.

Thank you everyone for your replies, I really appreciate them.

This happened a few days ago, and no I have not worked with them since because they are currently off work for pre planned reasons.

Sorry OP, I think you are looking for a straight yes or no answer, but life isn’t like that, except when someone actually commits violence.

Despite what some people think, words aren’t violence.

Most staff handbooks will cover this sort of behavioural issue and the consequences. So you start there.

As it’s stands now it would be down to the investigating managers, and depending on what they find, and yes there can be mitigations, and indeed some protections for those who appear to cross certain lines. And ultimately a decision will be taken.

If you are unhappy with the outcome, then I’d ask you why? It seems you think the appalling behaviour should lose the person their job. That’s not your right to make happen. Independent mgmt will investigate and arbitrate.

However, you do have further recourse. I don’t wish to out words into your mouth, but has the person been relocated away from you, done anything since, provided an apology, created a hostile environment where you don’t feel safe. If so, then if you are within your rights to speak with HR about these issues to see if some additional support can be put in place for you, or in the event say, that the person who did the abuse, has been giving you the eye, or muttered something out of earshot that ‘they are going to get you’ or that other staff are treating you differently now, and seem to have sided with the abuser, and thus you no longer feel safe, etc etc. of course, you could make all this up, but it would be a vindictive evil person who lied to get someone sacked.

The role of management sometimes is to navigate the difficult waters of staff who do not get on, and find a way to allow people to come to work and just do their work. If the abuser has shown remorse, been appropriately dealt with, let it go would be my advice. On the face of it, it looks like two strong individuals facing each other down, to me, and subject to knowledge of their prior relationship, or other mitigating factors, I’d say written (possibly final as it was in front of customers) warning worthy.

When did this happen?

Decisions on what the person did and what sanctions will apply should only be made after an investigation. Employer could suspend them until disciplinary process comes to a conclusion.

You will not be officially told the outcome, it may be obvious if they're fired, but you could be told how work will be organised in future, eg, other person moved, you never having to work with them again.

Are you a trade union member? You'll be able to get support and advise independent of your employer if you are.

I'm not a vindictive person, and I would not lie.

It's not 2 strong people facing each other down. It was me politely, but firmly trying to assert myself in order to nip the behaviour in the bud to stop it continuing in the future. Something it would surely have done (since it has happened in the past also, the behaviour). I am well known at my workplace for not being very assertive, in fact for being a soft touch, and so it was not easy for me to speak up at all. And now this.

@CuriouslyDifferent

Despite what some people think, words aren’t violence.

S4a Public Order Act 1986 makes it an offence to use threatening, abusive or insulting language with the intention of causing someone else harassment, alarm or distress. The offence is only committed if it has that effect. I would think that committing a criminal offence in the workplace would be viewed as gross misconduct by a tribunal.

You’ve pointed out an element of law. Groovy.

It doesn’t prove your point.

The abuser hasn’t been reported to police (unless I’ve missed that) hasn’t been prosecuted, hasn’t been found guilty. and neither does it confirm that words are violence.

and in terms of tribunal, I’ve been to a few…. They have a much lower bar than criminality… Comes back to what does the staff handbook spells out is considered gross misconduct.

Sorry but you do come across to me as a strong person. real life is different of course.

Hope it all gets sorted.

Please don’t think I’m condoning this abusers behaviour. It’s awfull and no one should have to put up with it.

Have you reported it formally? Not just telling a manager but actually reporting it. If not you need to use your employer's procedures and do so without delay.

It's then not up to you as to how the case is handled. I'd be disappointed if that behaviour was tolerated by the employer but at the same time not surprised if it didn't end up as gross misconduct.

In the mean time, tell your employer you don't feel safe and what are they going to do about it.

yes and a crime too...

The reaction seems out of proportion to what you say happened from your side. You were also guarded and had to be asked a few times what happened and your replies have been overly formal.

I think there’s another side to this story. There always is.

Just leave such a place. A place which attract such people is not a workplace but a hell and only demonised people will want to stay there

Your workplace has a duty of care towards you, if you feel under threat or suffering anxiety because of this incident/ any future incidents, you need to report it and ask how they are going to support you.

I have been guarded because its easily identified if someone from my work reads this, and I'm concerned about that.

Yes, the reaction was totally out of proportion!

There isn't another side to the story, this is what happened. That's part of what makes it so awful!

It's not that identifiable, there are people arseholes like this everywhere - which is why there are laws and company policies/procedures to cover it.

Your employer should conduct an investigation. If it hasn't happened already, you should be invited to a fact finding meeting where hopefully, there will be somebody else there to take notes of the discussion - you explain what happened, what was said and how it made you feel.

They should then see the other person and possibly other people involved such as line managers. You don't see those details. Then the investigating officer comes up with recommendations.

You could submit a formal grievance if you are concerned that their being on leave means that work will try to shove it under the carpet in the hope that it'll all blow over by June.

It's not your concern if there are any 'mitigating' circumstances - or what I tend to think of as excuses for unacceptable behaviour. It's not your concern if suspending or firing them causes them financial issues or the employer has staffing problems as a result. Your concern is what happened to you at work and your welfare and safety.

Check your people policies and staff handbook. Speak to your line manager and HR right away - an investigation should be carried out as per your policies. If it’s deemed it is a case of misconduct, or gross misconduct, there will a range of sanctions available to the deciding officer hearing the case.

If you feel it's being swept under the carpet then raise a formal written Grievance because management can't then ignore it and legally have to follow their policy which is written to abide by current Employment Law.

There are a few options but this is serious enough for a management investigation, perhaps a panel investigation.

If this has happened before then you need to raise it because no one should work in a hostile environment, and you are protected by law.

As other posters have written, no one can give you a black and white answer because the investigation may turn up mitigating circumstances which can reduce the penalty for bullying and harassment even if proven.

Also this is civil law so applies balance of probability instead of beyond reasonable doubt with criminal law.

Does your employer have an employee assistance provider so you can get some support for what sounds like a traumatic experience?

I second contacting your associative trade Union too, don't go into this alone.