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Employment law advice recommendations please

36 replies

BetsyBobbins · 24/05/2023 13:15

Hi there.

NC for this.

I've been suffering with a bully at work for over three years now. It didn't used to be that bad when my previous team manager was in post but we have a new team manager who started last September and it's his first team management job. He's very wet behind the years and also that kind of of person who is extremely non confrontational and happy clappy positive all the time.

The bully is a classic narcissist and very clever, she's a clinical psychologist, so her bullying leaves no traces obviously. If confronted she will DARVO (it's happened before). This person has a got a reputation for bullying people out of their jobs and she's been there for years.

It got to the point where I'm currently signed off sick with stress. I tried to raise this with my team manager (I needed to tell him I was going to be off sick) and at first he didn't believe me. Fair point, I'm not asking him to believe me but he could have at least listened. However all he did was to digress and virtually victim blame me, ie, "Only you can make you feel bad about yourself, I don't give anyone that kind of power", and I was like WTF I'm hearing? .

Is there any place besides Acas for employment advice? I tried my local CAB but all they did was to point me to Acas. I'm joining my union asap but I'm also prepared to pay for a consultation with an employment law lawyer but wouldn't know where to start looking for one.

Sorry for the long post and any help appreciated, thank you.

OP posts:
Quveas · 24/05/2023 13:53

Joining a union probably won't help now - they won't represent or provide legal cover to people who only join when they already have a problem. It's like insurance... taking out a policy after the fire has started doesn't cut it.

ACAS can be indifferent, and also they can give you guidance on the law, but not legal advice (just as well because I often see them getting it wrong).

Honestly, an employment lawyer is probably not a worthwhile investment right now. They can advise you, but nothing more, and I can tell you now what that advice should be.

Unless you have evidence then there will be very little that you can expect if your employer won't do anything - at the very least, a diary of events is necessary, but obviously that is your word against someone elses, so witnesses are better. It's not an either or - you need a diary and you need actual evidence. I wouldn't ever suggest recording people secretly because that might not be entirely lawful, but if you really have a very bad memeory and need a recording just to help you remember things.... I trust I make myself clear on that???

You will need to take this formal, so you need your grievance procedure and you need to follow it. The union might let you get advice from a local rep for this process - it really is up to them. My union would, but bear in mind, as I said, the problem has already been ongoing, so you can't expect anything more than that.

When you have exhausted the grievance procedure and nothing has changed, you might have a case of something, but bullying cases are notoriously hard to prove; plus you would probably have to resign and bring a claim of constructive unfair dismissal which are the very hardest to win - without actual evidence it wouldn't be something I'd recommend.

Or you could look for another job. Probably the fastest and least stressful option that guarantees you still have a job at the end of it.

That sounds depressing. Sorry but in my experience it often is and I won't sugar coat it for you. If you could even construct a case it will be a hard and lengthy road, very stressful, and even if your employer supported your grievance, the outcome may be a lot less than you would want. All too often victims are shuffled off to other jobs, or compliants not upheld. It's really rare that the bullies get what ought to be coming to them. Your employer might be one of the few who don't act like that, but the fact you are here suggests that isn't very likely - your bully has got away with this for years and blaming the new manager isn't really cutting it - they still got away with it for years. A good manager / employer stops bullying, they don't just mitigate it.

Redannie118 · 24/05/2023 13:59

@Quveas thats absolute rubbish.I used to be a union rep( as did my husband) and pretty much everyone who joins does so because they have an ongoing issue. The moment you join you are elligible for help and support for whatever issues you have. Its spreading rubbish like this that stops people getting the help and support they need.

OP - as well as the standard on-the-ground help your union will give you, they will most likely have a free legal advice line manned by trained legal advisors. Ask your rep for contact details.

HermioneWeasley · 24/05/2023 14:00

realistically all you could do would be to resign and claim constructive dismissal, and to succeed in that claim you would have to go through a formal route - raising a grievance etc.

is it worth it? i’d just look for another job

katmarie · 24/05/2023 14:25

Redannie118 · 24/05/2023 13:59

@Quveas thats absolute rubbish.I used to be a union rep( as did my husband) and pretty much everyone who joins does so because they have an ongoing issue. The moment you join you are elligible for help and support for whatever issues you have. Its spreading rubbish like this that stops people getting the help and support they need.

OP - as well as the standard on-the-ground help your union will give you, they will most likely have a free legal advice line manned by trained legal advisors. Ask your rep for contact details.

I was a union rep for several years, and my union, and the one I worked alongside (PCS, and Prospect unions if you're wondering) both had a policy of not assisting a new member with an existing issue, unless it was in the wider interest of the union to do so. Usually you had to be a member for six months before you could bring an issue to a union rep for help. That policy may vary by union, and even by branch within a union, but it's not a given that the OP will immediately get help from a union rep if she joins the union today.

Quveas · 24/05/2023 15:15

Redannie118 · 24/05/2023 13:59

@Quveas thats absolute rubbish.I used to be a union rep( as did my husband) and pretty much everyone who joins does so because they have an ongoing issue. The moment you join you are elligible for help and support for whatever issues you have. Its spreading rubbish like this that stops people getting the help and support they need.

OP - as well as the standard on-the-ground help your union will give you, they will most likely have a free legal advice line manned by trained legal advisors. Ask your rep for contact details.

I am a current union rep and I suggest that you read the rule books of almost every union - because you will find that I am absolutely correct. Unions in general will not expend resources on pre-existing issues.

Quveas · 24/05/2023 15:23

katmarie · 24/05/2023 14:25

I was a union rep for several years, and my union, and the one I worked alongside (PCS, and Prospect unions if you're wondering) both had a policy of not assisting a new member with an existing issue, unless it was in the wider interest of the union to do so. Usually you had to be a member for six months before you could bring an issue to a union rep for help. That policy may vary by union, and even by branch within a union, but it's not a given that the OP will immediately get help from a union rep if she joins the union today.

I can add that this is in the rule book of UNITE (my unions), plus UNISON, GMB, the RCN and NEU (and those are just the ones that I know of). Perhaps if it is "absolute rubbish" @Redannie118 can enlighten us as to which union they were in so that we can check their rule book?

I have often seen people complaining that they joined the union but the union wouldn't then support their case going forward because they didn't have qualifying membership - it is irresponsible to tell people that a union will support them when in fact most will not. They may get a local lay rep, or a free phone call (as I said - minimal basic advice) - they will almost certainly not get legal or national representation because that is for members of longer standing, as per their rule books.

BetsyBobbins · 24/05/2023 15:40

@Quveas Thank you for your reply. I've already been keeping a diary and also all the emails where she's tried to make something was my mistake only to end up with egg on her face because there was no mistake in the first place.

I'm joining a union but with the intention to have some kind of back up in case anything happens in the future, I'm not raising an immediate complaint as I'm trying to gather as much information as I can right now to know my options.

I'm not really blaming the manager, I'm just saying that his attitude was dismal. I wouldn't blame him for another person's behaviour.

@Redannie118 Thanks, I'm joining the union asap.

@katmarie Thanks, like I said before, I wouldn't take immediate action, joining the union is more with a purpose of having back up if the situation escalates and action is needed in the future.

Looking for a new job is difficult. I have a disability (but so has my bully). The number of places that offer work for people with disabilities is tiny, like looking for a needle in a haystack. Also, I do love my job, it'd be sad to leave.

I suppose all I wanted was to have some guidance before I raise a grievance (as my manager was as useful as a chocolate teapot), that is IF I raise a grievance, which is looking likely. But I think I need to research the organisation's internal policies and what avenues to take from now on.

OP posts:
Quveas · 24/05/2023 16:03

MAke sure that you read the union handbook then - a lot of people don't and you need to know at what point the full membership benefits kick in. Some people don't realise that benefits may be limited for new members.

I understand your position (I am disabled too, and spoke up against a new boss who was a bully) - so I don't just speak with experience of being a rep, but also of being in exactly your position. I had shed loads of evidence, which included covery recrdings that I definitely didn't make. The woman had a track history of bullying although few people had complained - those that had had been swept under the rug. I'll tell you now - I was moved to another role (although for personal reasons I was happy with that) and despite all my evidence not a single thing was done about her, yet again.

I know that my take on such cases is depressing, but I have rarely ever comes across a good outcome in a bullying case. Occasionally yes, but very, very occasionally. And sometimes, unfortunately, the fight isn't worth the stress if there are any other options. And I'll be honest - I like people who fight and I have zero capacity to keep my mouth shut (hence being a union rep!). However I totally get why most people can't or won't, and I am afraid that a big part of my understanding is seeing what fighting has done to some people. You have to be resilient. Fighting my own manager was an awful experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone. And to be clear my union were great - but we always knew the employer wasn't going to deal with this manager, because if they were, they'd have done it a long time ago.

upinspaceman · 24/05/2023 16:09

Didlaw are absolutely fantastic for cases like this (they're employment/disability/mental health/discrimination specialists). In particular I recommend Elizabeth who successfully represented me for an employment discrimination case - didlaw.com/

They offer initial calls to discuss your case to see if they have any merit.

Good luck OP, having worked for a bully previously I know how untenable it can be.

BetsyBobbins · 24/05/2023 16:27

Quveas · 24/05/2023 16:03

MAke sure that you read the union handbook then - a lot of people don't and you need to know at what point the full membership benefits kick in. Some people don't realise that benefits may be limited for new members.

I understand your position (I am disabled too, and spoke up against a new boss who was a bully) - so I don't just speak with experience of being a rep, but also of being in exactly your position. I had shed loads of evidence, which included covery recrdings that I definitely didn't make. The woman had a track history of bullying although few people had complained - those that had had been swept under the rug. I'll tell you now - I was moved to another role (although for personal reasons I was happy with that) and despite all my evidence not a single thing was done about her, yet again.

I know that my take on such cases is depressing, but I have rarely ever comes across a good outcome in a bullying case. Occasionally yes, but very, very occasionally. And sometimes, unfortunately, the fight isn't worth the stress if there are any other options. And I'll be honest - I like people who fight and I have zero capacity to keep my mouth shut (hence being a union rep!). However I totally get why most people can't or won't, and I am afraid that a big part of my understanding is seeing what fighting has done to some people. You have to be resilient. Fighting my own manager was an awful experience that I wouldn't wish on anyone. And to be clear my union were great - but we always knew the employer wasn't going to deal with this manager, because if they were, they'd have done it a long time ago.

I know the prognosis is not a good one and as much it would delight me to see her taken down it's not something I can envisage happening soon. Two assistants of her have been signed off with stress, one in the past and one currently but I'm cautious to approach them, I wouldn't think it's advisable.

@upinspaceman Thanks for the recommendation, there's no harm in having a consultation at this point I suppose

OP posts:
ATerrorofLeftovers · 24/05/2023 16:36

Came on to recommend Didlaw, but see pp beat me to it! They’re very good indeed it matters of this kind.

NeighbourhoodonWatch · 24/05/2023 18:13

@Quveas I had almost exactly the same experience. I was moved too (also a relief) but best day was when I found out she was retiring. Made my life a misery.

Op, I'm also a union rep and echo the posters who say if the issue predates your joining they may not help. I work in one of the unions mentioned above.

Greensleevevssnotnose · 24/05/2023 18:17

Acumen Law are another one

BetsyBobbins · 24/05/2023 20:27

Ok, so to use a metaphor, a union would be like a health insurance plan. If you present with any condition that's started before you joined them the claim would be invalid, is that it?

OP posts:
NeighbourhoodonWatch · 24/05/2023 21:48

From the Unison website: 'we have a pre-existing issue policy which means that we can only provide assistance when issues have arisen after the date of joining.

BetsyBobbins · 24/05/2023 23:54

NeighbourhoodonWatch · 24/05/2023 21:48

From the Unison website: 'we have a pre-existing issue policy which means that we can only provide assistance when issues have arisen after the date of joining.

Thank you, that would be the union I'd join as I'm NHS. I was planning to join for ages for other reasons too, there's no harm in joining them I suppose

OP posts:
Quveas · 25/05/2023 08:10

BetsyBobbins · 24/05/2023 23:54

Thank you, that would be the union I'd join as I'm NHS. I was planning to join for ages for other reasons too, there's no harm in joining them I suppose

If you accept that you cannot take any action about this bullying for a substantial period of time - until you have served the waiting period - then it would not be considered a pre-existing situation. So you can't join then rock up saying you want to do something about being bullied. But you could, say in six months (and that's just a guess - most unions have a stipulated period) go and say that you are being bullied and want help. It's not a "lifetime ban" - it's to stop what used to happen, with people joining, getting help and then leaving the union after it's helped them. And as I said - they might give you some lay rep advice. We would - but you wouldn't get the "expensive stuff" like lawyers.

Please also be aware, as I said previously, bullying is notoriously hard to evidence, hard to prove and actually, in many cases, not specifically an unlawful act (there is no anti-bullying legislation, for example). One persons bullying is another person's robust management or whatever term they like to use. It is seldom as simple and "report it and it gets fixed". Bullying is often the hardest of our cases to deal with, and unless it can be proven that it is, for example, based on discrimination, it is hard to get anything done, and it often means that the victim ends up being moved (which may not be what they want, but is often the only way they can get out of the situation).

Contrary to what a previous poster suggested, I'm not saying this to stop you complaining. Quite the contrary, if you are ready to go for it, you really must. Serial bullies get away with it because most of their victims don't complain. But you have to be prepared for it to - there is no point going in unprepared for how difficult it may be, and ending up pulling out without finishing the course. That could put you in a far worse position than you are already in.

When I started action against my manager, I was contacted by 9 other people who had been bullied by her over the years, and 4 others told me about bullying they had witnessed and /or heard about. Not one of those people complained at the time and none of them would come forward to support my claim. And I made no attempt to tell people about my grievance - that was just from people who heard on the grapevine. And despite the evidence, nothing was done about it because her manager "decided" that she didn't really mean to be a bully, it was just that she "phrased things unfortunately" and other such rubbish. She is still in her job and still bullying people. And that is a huge council with all the lovely policies to "prevent" this sort of thing.

BetsyBobbins · 25/05/2023 18:57

I've just found out that my Trust has a Guardian service and this is possibly what I was looking for, just someone to talk and listen and maybe advise all in confidentiality.

OP posts:
BetsyBobbins · 25/05/2023 18:59

@Quveas I'm very sorry that you went through all that, it's very soul destroying

OP posts:
Quveas · 25/05/2023 19:20

BetsyBobbins · 25/05/2023 18:59

@Quveas I'm very sorry that you went through all that, it's very soul destroying

Thanks. But I'm resilient and bloody minded! It is hard, but it can be done. That didn't mean I recommend it.

Yeah, we have one of those too. They are employed by the employer. I'm sure they want to be their best. I don't trust anyone whose wages are paid by the employer.

BetsyBobbins · 25/05/2023 21:43

Well, on the info it says that they can just listen in confidentiality and advise if the person wants to take action. So unless he'll be secretly recording me, I think I can at least have a conversation with this person without being fearful of reprisals or, even worse, what happened with my manager who first didn't believe me then victim blamed me. I'll sleep on it and maybe I'll email him tomorrow.

OP posts:
Twentynone21 · 25/05/2023 21:58

I’m with Unison & have a friend who was the victim of discrimination under the Equality Act 2010. I initially helped my friend to raised a complaint and subsequent grievance and she also joined Unison, they gave her advice not long after joining and then provided support about 4-5 months later. This was a particularly horrible situation and I supported my friend to record all of the incidents and meetings because her mental health was severely affected and then stood down when the union rep took over, he was appalled that it was still going on. My friend won her grievance and I’m happy to say secured a much better position within the same organisation and is really happy now. Hang in there as there can be happy endings!

welshmercury · 25/05/2023 23:08

Keep a log of everything.

if she says anything to you loudly reply with I didn’t quite catch that. Can you repeat it please? This makes other people in the area perk up and listen. They won’t repeat it when others might hear.

they have their own issues to deal with

search Brooks Gibbs how to beat a bully on YouTube. It’s so powerful. And knocks the wind out of their sails

BetsyBobbins · 26/05/2023 10:26

welshmercury · 25/05/2023 23:08

Keep a log of everything.

if she says anything to you loudly reply with I didn’t quite catch that. Can you repeat it please? This makes other people in the area perk up and listen. They won’t repeat it when others might hear.

they have their own issues to deal with

search Brooks Gibbs how to beat a bully on YouTube. It’s so powerful. And knocks the wind out of their sails

I've had a look at him, thanks. Will watch it more carefully when I have some more time. I've been keeping a diary and also have all her "problem" emails since the very beginning in a special folder.

OP posts:
Mars27 · 26/05/2023 10:27

Twentynone21 · 25/05/2023 21:58

I’m with Unison & have a friend who was the victim of discrimination under the Equality Act 2010. I initially helped my friend to raised a complaint and subsequent grievance and she also joined Unison, they gave her advice not long after joining and then provided support about 4-5 months later. This was a particularly horrible situation and I supported my friend to record all of the incidents and meetings because her mental health was severely affected and then stood down when the union rep took over, he was appalled that it was still going on. My friend won her grievance and I’m happy to say secured a much better position within the same organisation and is really happy now. Hang in there as there can be happy endings!

Good to know that there's success stories even it's one in a million