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Original poster

Academics - is this normal?

28 replies

Kathyis6incheshigh · 15/02/2008 13:45

At least once a term, at Research Committee in our department, we all have to go round the room and say what papers we've submitted/had accepted/rejected, what grants we've applied for and whether they were successful etc.

I just hate it - it feels like public humiliation and I am really struggling with confidence issues after being away from work having children and it really doesn't help.

Does anyone else do this in their department?

OP posts:
Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 15/02/2008 16:53

.

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chocbiscuits · 17/02/2008 22:07

For the last year, I've felt I have to do that to justify myself as seem to have people constantly on my back about teleworking but no-one else in the dept. does as far as I can tell. Not allowed to write grants though, only with papers.

Felt had a bit of a nightmare appraisal where I just basically got a list of things I'm not allowed to do...!

Think its tough in research world and w/confidence issues I always find it hard. Surely they realise you've been away with children though?

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 11:45

Why aren't you allowed to do grants Chocbiscuits?

I guess you're right, the toughness and competitiveness is just part of the deal....

Yeah, they do realise I've been away but what bothers me is that it is going to take such a long time to get back into things - conferences in the autumn already have their programmes fixed up and the publications that come out of those will be happening for several years after, so it's going to be a very long time before I have as much stuff going on as everyone else.

The RAE looks at how long you've actually taken off, but it doesn't make any allowance beyond that....

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marialuisa · 18/02/2008 11:57

That sounds really odd... School Research Committees are small strategic groups here not big meetings though. Most people take a couple of years to get a paper out and one person making multiple grant applications in a short period of time is prevented so there wouldn't be much news from anyone even if it were a big meeting.

Pruners · 18/02/2008 12:14

Message withdrawn

admylin · 18/02/2008 12:19

Really is a couple of years for a paper normal? dh is worrying because he's in his 3rd year at this job (started september) and only has 1 paper and as 2nd author.

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 12:21

We're encouraged to get as much grant income as possible - no limitations.

I could see the sense in it if it was to do with strategy, but we don't give enough info for collaborations to arise from it, it's more just a report back.

I can see the sense of sharing the info, too (say if it was on paper and circulated), it's the going-round-the-room aspect that is so hideous because if you have nothing to report you have to say so!

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marialuisa · 18/02/2008 14:16

Limit is not on income but is a sort of QA exercise, every application has to go through internal review and approval before going out to research councils so you couldn't put in similar proposals to MRC, BBSRC and Wellcome IYSWIM.

Admylin, I think the paper thing depends on your area. I know of chemists that seem to churn out 10 at a time but your DH's hit rate would be perfectly respectable in my DH's field.

Loshad · 18/02/2008 14:22

Kathy i used to have to do that to, and i hated it as well. Can you suggest to save everyone's time that folk just list published/accepted papers, and grants awarded and the list is circulated internally?

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 16:05

I suggested that to the last HoD Loshad - he didn't agree with me as he had a theory that it kept everyone on their toes

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UnquietDad · 18/02/2008 16:13

kathy - does sound excruciating and unfair!
I applied for a creative writing lectureship - part time and the dreaded RAE was the sticking-point - they only looked at 2001-06 and needed fiction published in that time, and I only had non-fiction.

(I have my theories as to why I wasn't subsequently shortlisted for another post once I did have a new novel out but that's a whole other story )

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 16:32

Oh yes, it's infuriating how the RAE distorted sensible priorities. You should keep looking out for lecturing jobs though - academia is not a bad place to work really, apart from the bureaucracy, backbiting, competitiveness, etc

How would you have managed with regard to bringing in research income? Would you have had to start developing research projects instead of writing?

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Jazzicatz · 18/02/2008 16:42

We don't have the research grant requirement, however, we do have an emphasis upon the submission of papers. We also to discuss out outputs infront of one another, which I feel is humiliating and devisive.

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 16:46

Interesting that you feel that too Jazzicatz.

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Jazzicatz · 18/02/2008 16:47

Well I think it is part of a deeper devision within our department - and this just makes the whole thing worse

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 16:51

Yes I can see it would do if the atmosphere is already strained.

We're mostly quite a friendly & supportive department but there are still (of course) issues between individuals which aren't helped by this.

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Tamum · 18/02/2008 16:55

God no, I have never had to do this anywhere I've worked. As marialuisa says, it's a small high level committee that deals with research strategy. We all kind of know who's doing what, but the only time it is officially reported is for promotions and RAE. It does sound a bit adversarial.

Did you ever reach any kind of resolution about your teaching being nicked btw?

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 16:58

I am going to share it with her in the future. I rather wish I hadn't given in so easily on that one, though.

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Tamum · 18/02/2008 17:02

Well, it might have made life very unpleasant if you hadn't, I guess. I was just thinking about this meeting some more, and once a term does sound incredibly frequent. I have plenty of grant income, but I only apply for grants every few years unless I have a run of bad luck, really, so I would have nothing to say at meeting after meeting even though I was doing perfectly well. It would be so easy just to collate the information by email too, wouldn't it?

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 17:14

Well yes, I needed to be seen to be nice and co-operative and get on with everyone. The longer I am back for and working normally the stronger my position is if she makes any more moves (eg if she nicks my idea for a textbook).

Interesting what you say about not necessarily having applications going all the time. I think in our department we would be thought resting on our laurels if we didn't have anything going. (Hence the constant need to make our research more expensive )

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Zazette · 18/02/2008 17:21

I have never heard of this; and can't see it going down well where I work - and I have been involved in research management across several academic units here.

I don't 'know' you at all and have no idea what your field is, but - are you really thinking of writing a textbook? are you sure that's a good idea? if you are just recently back from mat leave and rebuilding a research career, then perhaps concentrate your energies on the stuff that scores really highly - core original research, whatever that would be in your field. I mentor a lot of junior women in my institution and would never encourage them to write a textbook, it is not a high-impact, high-status activity in general. May not be true in your field (I am talking about humanities).

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 17:27

Zazette - it would be a 'reader' based on my teaching (so I already have the material to hand), with an introductory article which would be RAE-able (as proven by others in the series written by my colleagues.) Subject is humanities but vocational; books in the series are used by professionals not just students, which means they are seen as having an impact in the field.

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Zazette · 18/02/2008 17:36

OK, fair enough - I just think that if you are short of time (as we all are, if we work and have kids) it's important to use the time effectively. It's about opportunity costs...

So - the kind of intro you are talking about would be RAE-able but would score relatively poorly in RAE terms, in 'purer' humanities fields, because introductory/overview pieces don't embody your own research (usually). Likewise, in promotions terms, it would be a fairly 'weak positive' indicator. So probably only worth doing if it required significantly less effort/time than writing a journal article based on one's own research. But it sounds as if it might be measured differently in your field.

Original poster
Kathyis6incheshigh · 18/02/2008 17:42

"So probably only worth doing if it required significantly less effort/time than writing a journal article based on one's own research." - which it would. But it is also about having publication guaranteed, compared with sending articles to journals, getting rejected and having to rewrite completely for another journal.

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Tamum · 18/02/2008 17:43

It's not clear exactly what form the next RAE type thing will take though, is it? Might it not be too early to say what will score highly and what won't just yet?

I guess the frequency of grants is field-specific Kathy- if I have X amount of money needed to run a group of 7 or so people then I don't want to be applying for grants constantly, because my group would become enormous and I wouldn't have time to supervise them all adequately. We wouldn't have enough space if we all did this, either, so it is completely acceptable in my department to decide that we have enough for now