Advice on office dynamic

[LopesGirl]

I am a senior manager, above me are the directors. One team I directly manage are having issues with a dynamic I haven't been able to resolve or move forward with. I would like some advice fellow managers!

Most members of this team have worked there longer than me, and in a specific technical field so they are actually far more knowledgable in this specific field than me. I really trust them, respect their knowledge and their judgments. My role is to manage them from a HR and operational perspective (such as work flow, recruitment etc). I am on hand to make final decisions on operational issues, or guide them as to the directors wishes. Majority of the time they crack on with their work and they are self sufficient.

There is one member of this team who seems to have some issues with control, call them A. They will monitor other peoples outputs and are providing constant (mostly unnecessary) feedback. They also ‘tell tales’ to me about it. This started to affect one team member (call them B) confidence so I stepped in to tell A to rein it back and also pointed out this wasn’t productive use of their time. A has done this to other staff in the past so it’s not new.

B is newer than A, and A appears to have self appointed themselves as the member of the team no one can manage without and a martyr. A will take on a huge workload and never say no to anything, then will go off work sick with stress, causing stress to everyone else. B is still learning the ropes to some extent, but I can see that A stresses them out. B sometimes makes small errors which then A turns into a much bigger deal than it needs to be. No one is perfect and B is very involved in improving their work, but no one should have this level of interference.

As a group, I defined their roles as equal, (they are all on the same salary), although acknowledging A and others can use their knowledge positively to teach each other, but not to the point of going looking for other peoples errors.

Well A cannot manage to stop trying to control everyone else in the team, never saying no to anything, then spending even more time complaining to me about how stressed they are. I have had numerous conversations about having boundaries, not overloading themselves with work by going through other peoples work. A will not listen and has now started to accuse me of not being supportive and managing B, as B is making a lot of mistakes. B is on their last nerve. I do not have the capacity to babysit this team and neither should I have to, they are more than capable.

A is also now oversharing serious deeply personal, non work related issues with me, which then puts me in a position where I cannot address the work issues, because their personal issues are clearly coming to work with them and affecting them.

Would you start a conversation about capability and performance? Or a stress at work plan? I am reluctant to acknowledge work related stress, when the stress is caused by their own decisions at work and personal problems. I can’t see how we can move forward productively. What about the factor of their personal issues affecting them at work? I don’t want to lose this person I just want them to actually work!

Capability and performance review - their home issues and inability to self-manage making them banks to perform in the required way. Involve occupational health if you have it to help them with approaches to self awareness. You have to be firm that their behaviour is not appropriate and won’t be tolerated, and that it is not their job to monitor team member B.

Not ‘banks’, I meant ‘unable’!

In reality all you can do is involve OH as suggested above and/or have a very frank discussion individually and as a team about what their roles entail, and that it doesn’t include micro managing other team members. Give B the confidence and authority to be able to tell A they don’t need/appreciate the level of interference. It has to be a solid and consistent statement from both B, yourself and other members until A desists. It will be affecting team morale and potentially productivity. If no improvement seen within a 4-6 week window I would seriously be considering a written warning.

A is playing you like a fiddle.

I'd be doing weekly 1-2-1s with A to reign them in. I'd get them to tell me their plans for the coming week and have a catch up at the end of the week. I'd let them tell me all about the personal problems and then bring it all back to the work they are able to actually do and keep taking work off them. You need to take the control away from them. If they feel that they cannot do any work, take it off them and start the occupational health process. Get them doing some really shite stuff which doesn't really matter in the meantime, they need their power taken off them.

I'd be giving B something special to do, which is important to the whole team and allow them to shine without A's input. If A tries to butt in, B would have the permission to refer them back to me if they want any updates. I'd give B the chance to present to the team, and get a few team members on side to support B.

And yes, people management is like babysitting, and it needs doing - it's like chess and you can't take your eye off the ball when you have someone like this fucking things up.

A is constantly asking for 1 to 1’s but then misuses them -complaining and asking for endless direction on the most minor non issues. A’s need to control their entire environment is so stifling I can hardly bare to sit with them anymore, which is now an issue I have to address with myself of taking back control. I will say the same things every meeting and then sneakily it turns out they have done something else. I already culled a ton of useless processes they created (to control the workload but causes more work) I just deleted everything and banned them from creating more.

Every meeting I have just comes back to the same issue - A feels better at their job than everyone else and if everyone else was better there would be no issues. They then get emotional and cry about their life. I am relieved when they are off sick to be honest.

A apparently micromanages their entire family, their workload and colleagues and now trying to micromanage MY workload which is why I need to call it enough.

We don’t have an OH dept, which is something the directors and I can’t agree on, as they feel they always side with the staff and create more barriers.

Firstly I am going to separate A and B and stop as much interaction as I can. I am wary of being too brutal and direct with A as they have form for taking employment action, and being accused of causing work related stress (which is why I wish we had an OH!)

Stick to your guns, OP.

Write down everything. Every interaction you have which brings up some issue/ causes some stress for you or other team members. Just keep a log and save it to your personal file area.

You need to start a process of managing this person out, and don't apologise about it. Stick to your guns. You are not 'too brutal', you are completely justified. They sound like a complete nightmare and their impact on the team is not acceptable.

A sounds awful and is clearly affecting the whole team. Time to start capability processes and move them out. It will be worse for you in the short term but better in the long run as this situation sounds unbearable.

One thing which I think it would be worth doing is for you to independently have a good look at b’s work; and an informal chat with other team members about the situation.

Although I can see why a’s behaviour is frustrating it is consistent with how someone might behave working alongside a poorly performing colleague. Your description of a’s behaviour reads like they are expecting b to be sacked whilst you think b’s performance is fine which is a very big gap.

Sometimes as a manager we see whole team input rather than individuals achievements, especially with competent, self sufficient teams who often balance out their own weaknesses. Doubly so when it’s an area we don’t have all of the technical knowledge on.

By looking yourself in detail you’ll either realise there is a problem and deal with it. Or you’ll be able to confidently say to a “following you repeatedly raising concerns about b’s performance I have checked their work in detail and I am happy with the standard”.

I think that a is feeling frustrated with you because they are expecting you to manage b’s performance; expecting you to be regularly checking their work; expecting you to be raising concerns. They are unsuccessfully trying to do that from the side whilst running damage limitation by keeping important projects away from b by offering to do them themselves.

A is constantly asking for 1 to 1’s but then misuses them -complaining and asking for endless direction on the most minor non issues

Then you need to manage them. This is all part of the playing you like a fiddle thing.

And you definitely need to look at what the point of all this is. Are they right about any of it? Or completely off base and if so, you need to suggest to them that they might have outgrown the team and need a new challenge.

I think to be honest you might have created some of this issue.

You say you don’t have time to babysit the team but it seems that A has decided to do that for you. You often find in organisations if you create a gap and leave space, like a lack of management or team leadership, someone will take up that space and either support it or run wild with it.

I don’t get the impression from your posts that there’s a lot of training, support, monitoring and feedback coming from you to your team. A is training B. You don’t have time to babysit. A doesn’t set boundaries and is at risk of burnout. You’re avoiding personal issues they’re discussing with you.

You should be dealing with this. This is management. You support and train your team, you monitor them, you give constructive feedback, if they do something you don’t like, like have no boundaries, you hold them to account on that every, single, week.

@wildseas

thank you. I have met with B and they know they have made some errors as A gives them a run down on their working days. I would not audit the system unless I had cause to, and no one has asked me to run an audit, A has been doing it themselves. I asked A for examples of these errors or mistakes but they never produce them for me, so I can’t make a decision on them. B is losing confidence so I think some of the errors are a self fulfilling prophecy of A’s. A has unrealistic expectations and overly complicated processes that they have taught B, which I intervened with and it’s probably caused B to be more confused. I need to settle B.

I checked with other team members and they say they wouldn’t expect B to never make a mistake, they have been there 1 year vs some of the others, 20 years and if it happens and the person who made the error isn’t at work, they will just fix it and move on. B is coming to work to be greeted with a catalogue of errors or advice.

Everyone else is more relaxed and we work on an attitude of if you are working hard and trying your best, then that’s all I am asking.

The volume of work is high and time sensitive and therefore it’s not realistic to make every single action perfect

A doesn’t want B sacked, A has engulfed B into what I think is a codependent relationship where B struggles without A’s guidance but also feels stressed and under pressure. A seems to really like B and actively wants to spend time with them - when I separated them before as I said it had become unhealthy, A has sought them out again and B got sucked back in. B needs to get some boundaries so I am going to work on that!

I once had someone like this and had to seperate B from A and did an audit myself, turns out B had been operating with a manual and hadn't noticed that all the even pages hadn't been printed off. So was skipping out actions that made a huge deal to people that were doing the work and showing no returns as they just guessed what date should go into a field and were getting it wrong.

So an audit might well be the next thing you need to do.

I was moved into this role by my previous manager who knew I don’t have this technical skill. I could learn it all of it, but then I would be neglecting my other work and to be honest this isn’t the issue.

A does know more than B, but A also has the wrong priorities - A’s priority is to be better than everyone else, have everyone codependent on them to feel needed and likes to control the whole environment. A makes themselves completely available at work for all kinds of work that is over and above their role, gets involved with things they shouldn’t and goes down rabbit holes to achieve something. Someone will say ‘do you know about X?’ And instead of saying ‘yes, you do XYZ’ they will say ‘give it to me I will do it all for you’

The problem with the boundaries is the crying and distress A gets into about their personal life. Not only is it draining it’s a huge distraction and I am trying to be careful not to play into the hands of anything that could be used at a tribunal

really thoughtful posts and @wildseas I am glad you posted that. I’ve worked on a team with one huge underachiever and it was mightily stressful for the rest of us having to cover up for them, correct mistakes and sort of try to cajole them to work. All we could do was speak to our manager about it and nothing was done, perhaps our manager also thought we were being controlling because as you say they rarely saw the “natural consequences” of that person’s laziness and errors.

In a way OP it does sound a bit like you expect this team to manage themselves/each other but when that’s happening you are getting annoyed by it. Although A sounds like a pain in the bum, it’s hard to see that you can really have things both ways. I think you need to have chats with everyone on the team individually to find out how well things are Really working behind the scenes, then address any problems positively as their manager. You may not have capacity to “babysit” them but managing them is part of what you get paid for. After that you should have a better idea of what A brings to the team and also what problems s/he might be causing, plus you’ll hopefully have ironed out some other issues.

In the meantime when you have your one to ones with A, write an agenda and bring it with you and set a time limit. That way you’re in control.

if they are having serious personal issues that needs to be talked about too, I’m afraid. You can’t just opt out of hearing about your team’s life problems if they’re impacting on work.

Do you a colleague assistance program A can referred to regarding their personal issues?;these programs often have access to a counsellor.

A’s personal issues I do listen to, but the details make me feel quite uncomfortable to be honest.

It’s very very personal, things you would share with a close friend or a therapist. A is seeking help I believe which seems to have triggered some feelings they are struggling to manage. I am not a therapist, I don’t have these skills to give advice on these issues. I have directed them to employee assistance, yes

Can you give B a mentor that is not A? Ensure that A does not touch anything that B does..

A’s last work appraisal was dominated by sharing details of things that had happened to them in their past. I told them that I thought maybe they should seek some support. I also said they were not expected to share this level of details with me. I have also in the past given them a flexible working schedule, made physical adjustments for their health conditions and time off at short notice for issues with their family. They have had a lot of sick time. All of this is time out of work, distracting and disruptive. I also had to get extra staff in to help with the workload and they did not like the person I chose and spent a long time complaining. The person I chose is not emotionally over invested in the work and just came in and cleared a backlog. We keep having the same chats about being overly emotionally involved in everything - B, other colleagues, the work, now me!

is A paid more?
Do you have the authority to freeze A's pay until A improves peeople-skills.

I think OP said earlier they're all paid the same, which does seem a bit odd when B has one year of experience versus 20 years for others on the team, but that's the way it is.

I wonder if A is desperate for promotion into management? Do you think they've applied for jobs higher up before and not got them i.e. does s/he think they should have got your job?

Also @LopesGirl not trying to criticise but it does sound like you need some advice on chairing meetings one to one. I can tell that A steamrollers over people, but someone needs to stand up to that - if it's not you, could you get your boss to sit down with A?

I'm afraid you will need to micro manage A for a period of time, it will also mean that you will have to put an action plan in place outlining what she's to do on a daily basis, this needs to be reviewed at least weekly.

Put in place an action plan that you work through each meeting, that way she can't hijack with her own agenda

Action points around what she does on a daily basis
She has to pass on x y z tasks and not do herself

You can rate her performance on each task

Can you give B a mentor, someone else in the team that she can go to and is available for training etc, this way you can put one of As actions as refraining from interacting with B as it's now the mentors responsibility

I'd also raise it with hr and involve them, that way if it does get out of hand and you need to manage her performance officially you've already done and documented steps taken (cover your arse too)

@LopesGirl that makes sense about what you've said about B's errors.

I know that you haven't been asked to audit by someone higher up, but I do think that an audit would be a really good way to go. You do have cause here in my opinion: A is reporting a significant number of concerning errors; B acknowledges they are making errors; other team member acknowledge they are finding errors and correcting them. An audit is probably they only way in which you can determine fairly if the errors are reasonable or excessive and work out what training is needed to improve the error rate.

On top of whatever comes out of the audit I would also suggest some externally run training and some training run by you for B. This will boost their confidence and allow you to assess where any weaknesses lie. Other posters have recommended a mentor for B (who isn't A) and I think that would be an excellent plan.

In terms of supporting A then I think that your idea to separate them is a good one, as is the suggestion of a support line/work counselling for A.

One final thought is that if you're an empathetic manager with good people skills it is quite common to miss performance issues with staff because you're focused on the individual and the team dynamics and it feels a bit like that might be whats happening here. I suspect that if you look for and support the underlying performance concern then you might find that A's behaviour shifts.

Thanks all, it’s really good to have other viewpoints I do appreciate it.

A doesn’t want my job, I was external and I don’t believe there was any attempt or wish to move into my role.

This is one team in a much larger organisation and the reason they don’t have a full time manager or supervisor is that they should not need this.

Their workload is instructive and process led - a direct instruction is generated to them, there is a fully established process which they follow on a IT system, they complete this process and then their input ends. Some things generated to them sit outside their processes, which they are meant to pass along to another team or might need to ask for guidance. A does not pass them along like they should and gets overly involved in solving problems.

The technical parts are a. IT skills and b. Learning the processes or seeking out info about the process to follow. An example is: send Y information to X place. They then gather all the relevant information required. Send it. Move to next task. I have stronger IT skills than they do but they know the ins and outs of all the processes better than I do.

A is obsessive about their workload (as you can perhaps tell!). B’s mistakes are sometimes not including bits of information or needing time to find the right place to send the info, of which I provide support and training. If this happens, the system will flag to say info is missing and either B or someone in the team will attach it and send it again. From what I can see, these are minor occasional errors and I just did an audit today and couldn’t see anything of note.

B says they are losing confidence and feel under pressure from A so rushing. I have kind of been fighting against A some of the unnecessary processes they put in place which slow everyone down, they are adamant that it’s the ‘safer’ way to do things but I don’t agree that it is.

I am going to sit down with both of them and set them up a work plan. If A cannot stick to it then I will take it further.

This is one team in a much larger organisation and the reason they don’t have a full time manager or supervisor is that they should not need this.

Unless they are top of the organisation, everyone needs a manager.

They obviously DO need a manager!