Grade 7 in Civil Service too aspirational?

[mrsimpostersyndrome]

Had mid-term review earlier this month and this was what my team leader hit out with!

To provide some background, I've worked my way up to HEO (with temp SEO experiences also) in CS and mentioned how I'd like to see myself progessing to a Grade 7 post within the next 2/3 years. However I was told that there's too much competition for those posts within my age group (I'm 30) as Fast Streamers get priority so maybe I shouldn't be too aspirational!

Anyone else had similar experiences? Surely it's not out of reach for me to get to Grade 7, I have worked in teams alongside fast streamers in the past doing very similar roles and regularly keep up with CPD opportunities!

Not at.all. You need to find a mentor and a sponsor. Mentor to help you hone your applications and interview style and sponsor to advocate for you when temporary promotions come up and highlight your work to others. The current person will do neither, they've made that clear.

Of course you can be grade 7. I was and I'm nothing special

Sounds like your boss is bitter about their own career. Ignore them. Get a mentor. Look at development programmes you can apply for independently

Of course you can progress if you put your mind to it. However, I think your time scales are unrealistic. HEO and SEO are the grades where you get the broadest opportunities and you don't do yourself any favours by moving up too quickly. I've seen many people move up and get stuck as they don't have the skills to be more widely deployable. I'd suggest focussing on building breadth and depth of experience and skills as you will have many routes upwards which will serve you well across the length of your career.

Of course you can.

I dont know if all departments are the same but in ours we stopped promising fast streamers progression to G7 within 3 years. I think most still get there but it shouldn't block you.

Obviously if you're in an area with lots of competition it'll be more difficult. And if all the G6 are past fast streamers there may be a fair amount of unconscious bias going on. My area can not fill the G7 posts but it's a socialist role and we've already promoted people who would definitely been below the line 5 years ago.

I'm a regular interviewer and in all honesty I think the interviews are pretty easy to play once you've got the hang of it.

*specialist role not socialist!

Even in the olden days when the fast stream
structure was a lot less flexible and you were forced to take them once they had their ticket, I got my G7 outside of the fast stream process when I was 30, G6 at 33 and SCS1 at 35. On reflection I wish I'd spent a little longer at G6 and G7 but never had any regrets about getting my G7 when I did.

Depending on your profession and experience, you may need to move departments to get promoted. I've recently supported former colleagues still in the civil service in recruitment processes and the competition for talent is fierce - it's a candidate's market and as a PP said there are people being appointed who probably wouldn't have made the grade five or ten years ago - grade deflation has been a really serious issue in recent years, particularly in ministerial departments where a lot of ministers will only ever tolerate hearing from a DG or a director so those people need to be much more hands on than previously - which pushes everyone else down the ladder too.

I got my g7 at 30 having come in at EO 6 years earlier. My director worked his way up from an AO post. Don't let this muppet put you off.

I'm wondering if the team leader is ex-fast stream and grumpy that it doesn't have quite the cachet it used to...

Unrealistic timescale but perfectly ‘aspirational’.

I was 26 when I got my grade 7. Your boss sounds jealous!

I don't know how much it varies around departments but 2-3 years to go from HEO to G7 would be unusual where I worked. Agree with previous poster that timescales are perhaps over ambitious.

Interviewers score based on merit so why TF would a fast streamer get it over you? Go for it, don’t let some wet manager put you off that’s the opposite of what they should be doing.

@DarkMatternix @Octopusmittens I've been a HEO for 6 years and within that period had two 12 month temp promotions at SEO, so thought reaching G7 within a further 2/3 years would be okay, but responses seem quite varied!

@JassyRadlett yes some colleagues have also said may have more success with looking at other gov depts, some are quite far out location wise but I am open to it 😊

Thanks for all responses so far, glad it seems like my team leader is in the minority of thinking it is too aspirational!

That’s a very long time at HEO. Have you applied for any SEO roles in that time?

I know plenty of 20 something’s at grade 7. It’s perfectly doable. If anything, you are more likely than ever to progress quickly because the civil service are struggling to recruit.

I know someone wildly inexperienced and years off being ready who has just managed to secure a grade 7 role. I can only assume there were very, very few applicants for the post.

I’ve also never seen fast streamers being given priority but maybe there just aren’t many in my department.

I think it depends on the dept and what your role is, what kind of things you're involved in.

I came into cs as seo ~18 months ago and because of the project I'm working on and the role I do I'm on a path to promotion when I want to go for it (although not too bothered for the next 2/3 years because I have young dc and the extra responsibility is not appealing right now). Without the high profile project and 'in demand' specialty it'd be more difficult.

I have a friend who has been seo for around 5 years and not been successful in interviews for promotion over the last 3 years because there are so many people going for every job, whereas another friend went from HEO to g7 in under 2 years...

I think that’s a really bizarre thing for your team leader to say. I’d be inclined to ignore them!

Did they give any feedback on where your skill gaps are and what you need to develop in order to get promoted? That would have been more helpful (and appropriate).

Also, lots of competition amongst your age group - what?! Its not as if job adverts are targeted at certain age ranges only!

I don't think G7 is too aspirational but I'd suggest doing 2 different roles at SEO to give yourself the best chance. Have you applied for any of those?

Ignore the ex fast streamers - I find they are often a certain type who have a bias towards other people similar to them.

OP, I had a great piece of advice earlier in my career that I've always fallen back on - don't focus on what you need for your next promotion, but for what you'll need for the one after that.

So in your case, it's a case of what can you do now not just to get your G7, but to put you in pole position for a G6 down the track. Stuff like - have you worked in both an operational or delivery role and in a strategic/policymaking/advising role? Have you managed a large team, as well as a small specialist one? Have you worked in more than one department/ALB? Have you done time in a central department (preferably with contact with ministers) and in an ALB or a regulator? Have you got onto any talent programmes your profession offers?

Getting a G6 is a much tougher gig than getting a G7 but if you set yourself up well now it will help you to get your G7 as well as being an investment in the future.

I joined the CS as direct entry HEO at 28 and had made G7 by 33 (3 years HEO, 2 years SEO - currently a G6). It is not aspirational to want to get there and with the right support you certainly can. I work in a small ish dept so had to wait for job openings but in a bigger dept, there'd be lots of opportunities.

I'd say think carefully about the roles you apply for. People get tempted to apply for any G7 going but actually you end up potentially in a role that doesn't suit you, which can set back your confidence.

My other tip is do not underestimate the jump from SEO to G7. I found it much more difficult than the HEO and SEO jump. So having a supportive manager is key. I'd recommend speaking to some trusted colleagues and getting honest feedback on what you need to develop before making the jump.

Ive never heard of fast streamers getting preference. As far as I know all get an interview and it's done on merit.

I got m g7 at 29 and I know others who had it younger.

However I will say that there is a big jump between seo and g7 and if you're not even an seo yet it's gonna be hard though not impossible within those time frames.

Is there a reason you haven't gone for a perm seo position? That's the first step

I did EO to G7 in just over 4 years. No fast/graduate scheme just hard work and lots of applications. Operational delivery in priority and challenging areas gives excellent competency examples.

Look into a sideways move to a more difficult area if you feel you are coasting.

Its definitely not true that fast streamers get preference for G7 jobs (I've never come across this.) Fast streamers do seem to progress quicker to G7 than others but I think that is down to support they get on the programme to develop CS behaviours for applications.
I am a G6 now (at 34), started as an EO about 8 years ago.
I would advise you to get a mentor for a start, they can give you more practical advice based on your current experience and what you want to do in the future. As others have said the jump between SEO and G7 is pretty big so I would start by getting a stretching substantive SEO role with a supportive line manager and go from there.
For the record I don't think you are being too aspirational at all- it's great to be ambitious and have a clear goal!