Page 2 | Holiday entitlement this Xmas. I’m adamant my employer is wrong!

Rallyaround · 2022-12-13T11:13:35+00:00

So I have 28 days annual leave. But 8 of those are for public holiday and 20 when I choose. These 8 obviously cover bank holidays and Xmas and new year. In Scotland the 2nd is a bank holiday therefore covered by those 8. So I was told two of the annual leave days will cover the Xmas and new year weeks. So as Xmas is on a Sunday I assumed the days would be Monday and Tuesday. However I have been told this morning that we are expected to work Tuesday to Friday. So I said ok I’ll presumably have that day in lieu. I was told no I just lose it. I have argued that this I’m sure is incorrect. they want the business operating on the Tuesday which I get and I’m fine with, but you then get the day back in lieu. They are adamant I don’t and it’s just tough if Xmas lands at the weekend. This has been going on for years with nobody questioning it. I’m new this year. Please tell me I haven’t got this wrong?

skyeisthelimit · 13/12/2022 12:18

28 days holiday to include bank holiday is the norm for a lot of companies. They don't have to let you have a bank holiday off so that is correct, but if you don't have it that day you definitely have it another day, so your employer is wrong.

As others have said though, there were 2 extra bank holidays this year, but employers didn't legally have to add them on, so a lot of people will end up with 2 days less holiday than they thought they had.

mrsm43s · 13/12/2022 12:23

If your contract is 20 days choosable and 8 bank holidays, then you are only entitled to be paid for 8 bank holiday days, regardless if there are 9,10 or more in the year. The important thing is that the total number of paid days off you get is 28.

Are you saying that they are giving you less than 28 days paid leave in the year? If so, they are incorrect.

If you are saying that you have 20 days choosable, have already had 8 days bank holiday paid, and the Tuesday is a bank holiday, so you should have it off paid, then you are wrong, as that would add up to 29 days paid leave, and you are only entitled to 28 as per your contract.

You are only entitled to 8 days bank holiday paid, not all bank holidays. In England, most years 8 days will equal all the bank holidays, but this year there was the queen's funeral (plus it seems that you have an extra bank holiday in Scotland).

In short, if your contract specifies that you are paid for 8 bank holidays, you are not entitled to be paid for any further bank holidays over that amount. It's not the designation of "bank holiday" that matters, it is the number of paid bank holidays that you are entitled to and have already taken that matters.

Quveas · 13/12/2022 12:42

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 11:36

I just wanted to make clear, I don’t mind working the Tuesday at all. But they want me to work the Tuesday and deduct it from my entitlement. They can’t have it both ways.

Actually they may be able to, because those confidently asserting you are right may be wrong themselves. It actually depends entirely on the wording of your contract. Which you have been asked now several times.

If your first statement is correct then you have an entitlement to 28 days holiday, full stop. Bank holidays are included in those 28 days. But there is no entitlement in law to bank holidays off. For legal purposes, with few exceptions, bank holidays have no relevance. And an employer can refuse holidays that you want, so even if you wanted Tuesday off, they can say no.

So the only relevant question right now is - how many days holiday have to booked this leave year? If the answer is 28, you've had your entitlement. If it isn't, then you eed to ask when you can take it (assuming the leave year ends on December 31st, which it may not).

Original poster

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 12:46

So the contract is 28 days inclusive of bank holidays. I was working on the queens funeral so didn’t get that one off. But after I took annual leave in October we I asked what I had left. I was told I had 5 days altogether, but two would be allocated for Xmas and two would be allocated for new year. So therefore I would have one to take when I choose.
this is how today started as I was asked if I wanted to take the Tuesday as my last day and I said I thought I had it off anyway. Then the conversation about how it’s tough if Xmas lands on a Saturday or Sunday, you just lose the holiday.

OP posts:

Quveas · 13/12/2022 12:47

mrsm43s · 13/12/2022 12:23

If your contract is 20 days choosable and 8 bank holidays, then you are only entitled to be paid for 8 bank holiday days, regardless if there are 9,10 or more in the year. The important thing is that the total number of paid days off you get is 28.

Are you saying that they are giving you less than 28 days paid leave in the year? If so, they are incorrect.

If you are saying that you have 20 days choosable, have already had 8 days bank holiday paid, and the Tuesday is a bank holiday, so you should have it off paid, then you are wrong, as that would add up to 29 days paid leave, and you are only entitled to 28 as per your contract.

You are only entitled to 8 days bank holiday paid, not all bank holidays. In England, most years 8 days will equal all the bank holidays, but this year there was the queen's funeral (plus it seems that you have an extra bank holiday in Scotland).

In short, if your contract specifies that you are paid for 8 bank holidays, you are not entitled to be paid for any further bank holidays over that amount. It's not the designation of "bank holiday" that matters, it is the number of paid bank holidays that you are entitled to and have already taken that matters.

There were potentially two extra bank holidays that could have been taken this year - the Queens funeral and the Jubilee on 3rd June.

Quveas · 13/12/2022 12:49

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 12:46

So the contract is 28 days inclusive of bank holidays. I was working on the queens funeral so didn’t get that one off. But after I took annual leave in October we I asked what I had left. I was told I had 5 days altogether, but two would be allocated for Xmas and two would be allocated for new year. So therefore I would have one to take when I choose.
this is how today started as I was asked if I wanted to take the Tuesday as my last day and I said I thought I had it off anyway. Then the conversation about how it’s tough if Xmas lands on a Saturday or Sunday, you just lose the holiday.

Did you work the Jubilee bank holiday as well? There were two extra bank holidays this year, not one. So if you had the June day off, then their reasoning may be wrong, but the facts are correct - you have already had 8 days bank holidays and they aren't obliged to give you a 9th.

WitchDancer · 13/12/2022 12:49

I would give ACAS a call for advice

Original poster

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 12:58

I started after the Jubilee. So my entitlement was worked out from my start date until end of March. But did not have the queens funeral off.
they specifically said my 5 days left included two at Xmas and two at new year.

OP posts:

Overthebow · 13/12/2022 12:59

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 12:46

So the contract is 28 days inclusive of bank holidays. I was working on the queens funeral so didn’t get that one off. But after I took annual leave in October we I asked what I had left. I was told I had 5 days altogether, but two would be allocated for Xmas and two would be allocated for new year. So therefore I would have one to take when I choose.
this is how today started as I was asked if I wanted to take the Tuesday as my last day and I said I thought I had it off anyway. Then the conversation about how it’s tough if Xmas lands on a Saturday or Sunday, you just lose the holiday.

Ok so they are counting 2 bank holidays for new year? Wouldn’t that make 9 instead of 8, with the extra Scottish one? There was also an extra one for Jubilee?

exactly how many bank holidays have you taken so far this year op?

Original poster

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 13:03

I started in August, and have taken no bank holidays since.

OP posts:

HereForTheFreeLunch · 13/12/2022 13:23

It's already been moved by the govt. They can't just say 'oh it's not a bank holiday as that would be on the weekend'.

www.gov.uk/bank-holidays

cherriegarcia · 13/12/2022 13:35

You are right. You still get 2 bank holidays for Christmas Day/ Boxing Day even if they fall on a weekend.

Because Christmas Day falls on a Sunday this year, Mon 26th & Tues 27th are the two bank holidays.

mrsm43s · 13/12/2022 13:48

Did you not take the August Bank Holiday off?

mrsm43s · 13/12/2022 13:56

What times does your annual leave year run from and to?

You would be entitled to a pro-rata portion of 28 days for the time you were employed in the holiday year. (I'm assuming you work full time, for part time you'd need to pro-rata again).

Then, how many days have you had off in the holiday year, B/H and annual leave combined.

Take away the total amount of days leave taken from your pro-rata'd allowance, and that will tell you how many you have left to take. You need to deduct any bank holidays or annual leave that you take off from this amount.

If the Tuesday is a designated working day by your employer (which they are perfectly entitled to do) and you work it, then you don't deduct a day for it.

No one can tell you whether your calculation is right, without seeing it in the context of all the other information needed.

bumbledeedum · 13/12/2022 19:58

The statutory minimum leave is 5.6 weeks (28 days for full time) annually. Employers can elect to allocate 8 days of this to bank holiday but your leave is still the same. Technically if you started in August, depending on when exactly you started you have 16.5-19 days leave until the end of March. How many days of 'other' leave have you taken in addition to the presumably just 1 bank holiday in August?

SwedishEdith · 13/12/2022 20:14

Think the August bank holiday was 1st Monday of August in Scotland.

Original poster

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 20:15

So I started at the end of August and they said I would have 16 days to take before the end of March. Two was Xmas week and two would be New Years week.
I have taken 11 days in total so far for a holiday I had booked prior to my employment. I wasn’t expecting holiday pay for this to be honest but they said they would just take it out of my 16 days.
So they said when I came back I had one more flexible day to take and I would need to have the two at Xmas and new year.
But today they said I am expected to work 4 day weeks those weeks but they would still be deducting a total of 4 days holiday.
I said immediately that isn’t right as I am working 4 day weeks so they can’t just deduct the four days as I am only take a total of two days off.
they said it is tough that Xmas lands on a Sunday this year and I will just need to lose the holiday.

OP posts:

Morechocmorechoc · 13/12/2022 20:22

Tell them either they give you the bank holidays as is law or you will report them for breaching employment law. Simple

ICouldHaveCheckedFirst · 13/12/2022 20:31

Businesses in Scotland don't generally have a 'bank holiday' in August - unless they are actually a bank (strange but true).
OP, did anyone give you the dates of the 'bank holidays' that apply in your company?
Also, assuming the business stays open on Bank Holidays, employees are normally allowed to take another day in lieu.
I'd call ACAS, OP.

WeAllHaveWings · 13/12/2022 20:44

AreOttersJustWetCats · 13/12/2022 11:26

You are correct.

Also, if you're in Scotland you get 9 bank Holidays not 8.

Xmas day, boxing day, NYD and Jan 2nd (or next working days if a weekend), 2 at Easter, May Bank Holiday, Spring Bank Holiday & August Bank Holiday

Not everyone gets them all, Ive never been in a job in Scotland that gets good Friday. Our English colleagues do but they then dont get 2nd Jan.

Blogswife · 13/12/2022 20:49

You have 28 days leave p.a.( including 8 days bank holiday allowance) Each working day that is “taken off” (bank holiday or not) is deducted from the 28 days . If you normally work on the bank holiday it’s deducted and if you don’t normally work then it’s not deducted

In this case Xmas day is a Sunday, a day that you don’t normally work so no deduction from annual leave entitlement. The Tuesday is a normal working day so if you work it as usual there’s no deduction from your leave and if you don’t work then they deduct one day.
If you can’t make your employer understand this , ring Citizens Advice while you’re at work and they’ll explain to you both .

amonsteronthehill · 13/12/2022 20:53

It's a government dictated holiday date ... your employer is wrong and breaking the law.

I'd tell him it's a bank holiday, and you're entitled to take it off or have time off in lieu. You're willing to do either.

unpocamasporfavor · 13/12/2022 20:53

Rallyaround · 13/12/2022 20:15

So I started at the end of August and they said I would have 16 days to take before the end of March. Two was Xmas week and two would be New Years week.
I have taken 11 days in total so far for a holiday I had booked prior to my employment. I wasn’t expecting holiday pay for this to be honest but they said they would just take it out of my 16 days.
So they said when I came back I had one more flexible day to take and I would need to have the two at Xmas and new year.
But today they said I am expected to work 4 day weeks those weeks but they would still be deducting a total of 4 days holiday.
I said immediately that isn’t right as I am working 4 day weeks so they can’t just deduct the four days as I am only take a total of two days off.
they said it is tough that Xmas lands on a Sunday this year and I will just need to lose the holiday.

This has made me so angry on your behalf! Not only are they being a bit thick about working it out, but they actually think that even though you're only having two of your normal working days off, they get to deduct four days of annual leave?! They are insane!!!
Please call CAB or ACAS and get them to explain it really slowly to your useless boss...

Gazelda · 13/12/2022 21:20

Can you not give them a copy of their message detailing your entitlement to end of Leave Year and a list all of the days you've not been at work (Mondays to Fridays) and tally them up.

eg
Mon-Fri 1-5 Oct (5 days)
Mon-Fri 8-13 Oct (5 days)
17 Nov (1 day)
1 Dec (1 day)
26 Dec (1 day, BH)
27 Dec (1 day, BH)
1 Jan (1 day, BH)
2 Jan (1 day)
Total 16 days

skyeisthelimit · 14/12/2022 09:59

like you say, they can't have it both ways. If you are working then they can't also take a days holiday off you for that same day. That makes no sense whatsoever.

Ask them for a list of the days that they have you down as taking holiday. Get it in black and white, then ring ACAS for advice.

But I don't see how any sane person could put you down as say 27 December holiday , and then expect you to work on that same day.

Just take the BH part of it out of the equation. you are entitled to X days and here is a list of X days.