Saying my boss was fiery and unprofessional at times

[joedi2022]

Hey, anyone understand employment law?

I've been under investigation at work for saying my boss came across as fiery and unprofessional at times. I said this in front of another colleague, I was attempting to highlight how he came across at times, the conversation was cordial but the day after it HR wrote to me to tell me I was under investigation and if it was proven I did make these comments it would lead to dismissal.

I genuinely thought this was a huge mistake, but it appears not.

I can provide evidence of this fineness and unprofessionalism, but HR weren't interested they said that the investigation was into whether or not I said this and nothing else, this is a public sector organisation.

I'm worried sick about losing my job and only income, anyone with any employment law experience can offer any advice?

Do you have 2 years service?

Did they really say they'd dismiss if proven - or could dismiss if proven? The words may be very important.

That said, sorry, but this isn't about what your boss is like. If you have an issue with your boss, there are proper processes. Gossiping with a colleague obviously isn't one of them.

You clearly can't say it didn't happen, so tell the truth, be apologetic, accept it was a misjudgement, and if necessary plead for a second chance.

And NEVER trust colleagues. Obviously the person you spoke to ran off and ratted you out. Personally if you'd said that about me I'd have made sure you knew I knew. Then forgot about it and assumed you wouldn't be daft enough to repeat your error. But not everyone is like that.

You could lodge your own grievance about your boss being unprofessional. You would need to give dates, times etc. as evidence, that way it should be investigated.

Be aware lodging your own grievance can be seen as a delaying/diversionary tactic, as often people going through a disciplinary investigation do this. However, you are saying you can evidence that what you said was factually accurate.

I would suggest your first step is to contact your TU and ACAS.

Time to speak to a trade union! This is what they’re for.

I think you were unwise to say what you said. Id be interested in what grounds they have to fire you though. Ask them to lay it out. Its not gross misconduct.

Hi

I should clarify.

I spoke to HR about my boss's behaviour, and they recommended to speak in an informal capacity to try and resolve, they also recommended that I take a colleague with me.

The comment I made about the behaviour was said directly to my boss. He responded at the time and said his enthusiasm was sometimes misconstrued but then reported me to HR.

I have an abundance of evidence much of it witnessed by others where I can demonstrate the behaviours I was attempting to describe.

The HR team have provided zero help or support. I'm liaising with my union just now but wanted to know if anyone had any advice or knowledge of such a situation on how this can possibly be a case for dismissal.

Appreciate the response though.

The HR team are not there to help or support you, they are there is represent the employer and ensure everything is done legally so please don’t count on that.

Yeah really good point from @Hoppinggreen - HR work for the employer, not you. It’s why trade unions are really important at times like this. I grumble every time I see my union fees come out of my bank account as I’ve never actually used them but as a mum, thinking about having more kids, with a long term health condition, in a public sector organisation looking to cut jobs….it’s like paying insurance.

On ‘unprofessional’, it’s a pretty strong accusation, in my opinion - but also depends on how it was said. I would only consider a report to HR appropriate for such a word if for example it was said in an acrimonious fashion, was part of a pattern of such allegations or a pattern of very difficult and critical conversations. I think that’s the only way it could be the basis for dismissal too - it would need to be part of larger behaviour or context. I’m not blaming you, just saying that would be my experience. I think ‘you are unprofessional’ is very different ad well to ‘I think the way you acted in this circumstance was unprofessional’ - one allows room for reflection on a particular behaviour, one is a catch all and quite serious allegation.

it is pretty hard to get rid of established civil servants, so will depend on the terms and length of your employment too.

How long have you worked there? You had already complained to HR about him.

I guess they thought the informal meeting was supposed to be used to iron out any difficulties. The fiery comment he may have been able to accept. However "unprofessional" maybe he felt he couldn't accept.

Perhaps the manager has gone back and said I can't see that @joedi2022 is going to change their view and it is now clear we can't work together. If you have been there less than 2 years they can let you go. As it is public sector perhaps they may try to move you elsewhere.

I could accept ‘I thought your behaviour there was a bit unprofessional’.

I couldn’t accept ‘you are unprofessional’.

That is an odd clarification in that it really is a very different story.

To be honest if two of my team burst into my office and told me I was unprofessional, I would probably get HR involved too. But I wouldn’t see it as the employee being investigated, more a case of an independent party trying to get to the bottom of things and suggest a way forward. Are you sure this is not happening?

HR should have handled that better esp the informal bit. I would not have said what you said especially if you have history. However I still fail to see what your boss reporting you to HR will do. Its not gross misconduct. I would ask HR to formally indicate where they are with this. They have to state grounds for dismissal or any other punishment they want to apply. A period of sick leave might clear the air a little for you with some distance.

Do you have evidence of HR's advice to speak to him as you did?

Hmm yes, that is a very different version from the first one. But I would still have to know what was said, how it was said, and I absolutely wouldn't have "bushwhacked" my manager with another colleague without any warning at all.

What is "fair" or "professional" isn't something easily defined either - what the OP thinks is not the be all and end all of the discussion, and what the employer thinks is actually the relevant measure. To be honest, in such a situation, unless there was clear wrongdoing then I would always advise someone to seriously consider getting another job. It's my experience that no matter what evidence you think you have, unless there is clear wrongdoing (and it doesn't seem like there is) then the managers opinions on such matters generally hold sway with employers. And you can almost certainly guarantee that every coleague who ever agreed with you is now busy disagreeing with you and sticking their head firmly under the parapet. I may be wrong about that - but 90% of the time I won't be!

And for the person who said it isn't gross misconduct:
(a) it doesn't have to be to be dismissed for it, and
(b) how do you know? You have no idea what was said or how it was said - shouting "You are f*ing unprofessional and I despise you" will almost certainly be gross misconduct unless the employer really dislaikes the manager!

I am slightly perturbed if this is public sector as the OP states, because our HR are certainly not perfect (or on the employees side) but they are also not stupid and are process driven. So the notification of an investigation and the possibility it could lead to dismissal will have been in writing. Which means they are taking this VERY seriously, for whatever reason, and that is rather unusual as an approach. If it was such a civil conversation as the OP suggests, then there is a huge chunk of information missing here about why it has escalated so badly. HR generally prefer to avoid escalation is at all possible.

@joedi2022 after your update definitely lodge a formal grievance against your manager and HR. You will need a clear timeline with supporting evidence that you raise this with HR, their advice and what happened.

If HR wanted you to address it with your manager they should have done it as mediation with either an HR professional or a trained mediator to facilitate.

Not sure where you got that I burst into anyone's office???

I asked for a meeting as advised by HR to discuss the problem, I advised that I was bringing a long a colleague as per HR advice.

Sounds like they set you up tbh. Have an informal chat and then boss uses informal chat against you?

Speak to ACAS.

I didn't say you did. I was suggesting that someone saying it wasn't gross misconduct couldn't say that because we have no idea what was said, how it was said, or what else went on. We have about two sentences describing your impression of what must have been a much longer conversation, and from your own point of view. There is quite clearly another point of view or we wouldn't be discussing this at all. I'm not taking sides, simply pointing out that assertions in the absence of facts are useless. Telling someone that it can't be gross misconduct when that isn't a fact doesn't help you or anyone else.

But I did wonder, as the pp suggested, whether you were set up - assuming that there really isn't a better explanation. Because in all honesty, I'm surprised HR told you to speak to your manager or to go with a colleague.

There is certainly more going on here than immediately obvious. It didn't mean you aren't telling the truth. But something very odd is happening

Speaking to HR and bringing in a witness doesn't mean you can call people unprofessional though. It's an insult. You're saying he's fallen below the expected standard of behaviour and it will put people on the defensive.

You always have to strategically word difficult conversations like "can you explain why X happened" with X being examples of unprofessional behaviour.

Will the witness you brought in corroborate that you called him unprofessional?

HR might make an example out of you as they need to protect the company's reputation.

1. You spoke to HR and they advised you to raise your issues in person.
2. You did so
3. This person then raised a grievance against you regarding the comments made.

HR don't want anyone to misconstrue that they gave you permission to make such comments. They only endorsed you informally raising concerns but not the language used. They don't want to be seen as colluding with bad behaviour

I find this absolutely bizarre. So you aren't allowed to have an opinion about your boss now? Very weird. If your boss called you unprofessional in a 121 would that also be a disciplinary offence?

And I can't believe he ran to HR with that. Very childish (you could say fiery behaviour).

Could be different for a manager in context, as it's their job to iron out unprofessional behaviour and raise/rectify performance issues in line with business needs.

1. involve union, and/or ACAS.
2. keep written record of all correspondence from HR / Boss / Witness (Colleague who attended meeting) if you don’t have, make record of your own timeline and ask witness for a written statement recalling the context and content of the meeting. Ask that they do not discuss.
3. hard part: asking other colleagues for witness statements to verify the behaviour of your boss. You may find that some are ‘all talk’ - if you get, ask that they do not discuss.
4. ask HR for the complaints/grievance policy and see that policy/procedure was followed- they advised you to approach boss informally, this should be in writing in this policy- if not, you should not have been advised. This policy will tell you the procedures they will use in terms of the grievance against you- and hopefully provide you with comfort. They normally would need to investigate/give verbal or written warning if necessary/offer mediation etc before any mention of dismissal. If you’ve not been treated fairly then grounds for appeal etc. HR are not on your side, and not your friend. They are for the employer and your boss who acts on behalf of employer- they may try to intimidate you.
5. any meeting going forward with boss or HR you ask for a neutral person (admin / office) to attend the meeting & for them take a written minute/record, otherwise things are open to their interpretation e.g. ‘you implied, you said…’ rather than accurate, factual comments. If needed, remind HR & boss, under GDPR you’re entitled to all personal data, and for it to be accurate and shared with you on request.

So you know what was said and how it was said? Do share. There is a difference between having "an opinion" and te many ways that you could express that opinion.

I agree! This is the oddest scenario I have ever read. There must be more to it?

What sort of relationship do you normally have with your boss? It’s a strange response (from him) if it’s normally cordial.

You mentioned you're in the public sector? I've been a public sector manager for years dealing with disciplinary processes and there's no way anything you've described saying meets the criteria for dismissal. If you'd said he was fiery and unprofessional in front of an external person or member of the public, then yes, but not behind closed doors. If you've been advised by HR to meet with him and take a colleague, I'd be raising a formal grievance - you've acted in line with the instructions given by HR. I'd also say in your response that you'd be open to formal mediation between you and your boss, to be facilitated by an external 3rd party.