To think being prejudiced against the privately educated is OK

[EastLondonObserver]

I have spent 25 years working in the advertising industry at some of the most highly regarded agencies in the world. Most of these have been dominated (in certain roles, at least) by the privately educated who gained their entry to the industry through having personal/family contacts in it, were subbed by rich parents while working in low-paid or free internships to gain experience and had that empty confidence private schools instil.

Perfectly capable graduates educated comprehensive schools didn't get much of a look in. However a few managed to break through, including myself.

Consequently, throughout my career I have actively rejected almost all privately educated graduates applying for entry level positions. This runs into hundreds of applicants. I have managed to do this without being called out. Sometimes I have rejected them even when they clearly would have done a better job than a comprehensive school educated alternative. These were corporate companies - it made no meaningful difference to me if they were mildly less successful as a consequence. The only exception was one graduate educated at Harrow and Bristol. I gave him the job as an experiment. He was average at best.

I did this in the name of social justice: re-distributing opportunities away from those with unearned privilege.

Have I been unreasonable? Has anyone else done the same?

I like your style!

Is it made clear at the outset that the company's policy to is to give priority to the less privileged? If it is, then fair enough. It's not fair to waste candidate's time on a job they don't have a cat in hell's chance of getting through no fault of their own.

Exactly.

Yes...did they have music lessons? Extra coaching in sport? Is your house in a nice area?

@EastLondonObserver

What is it about Readabookgroucho's style that you like?

Is it the honesty?

@Readabookgroucho

If you're proposing the principle that some discrimination is acceptable then you have to accept that all discrimination is acceptable.

Is it though? It was in the past but it is now illegal to hire an intern and not pay them minimum wage. Work shadowing is fine but not working .Not paying your interns can get you into a lot of trouble.

The issue with these low paid internships is that it’s very hard for someone who isn’t handed money by rich parents, or can live at home in London* or within a commutable distance, to undertake them.

*where all the leading companies in many private school heavy professions still are

Funny how that hasn’t stopped all manner of affirmative action from taking place already.

The comment about if some discrimination is acceptable than all is makes no sense. And undermines your argument anyway as there’s clearly been discrimination against state educated candidates for decades (just look. at who has the top jobs) so why is discrimination in this other direction so upsetting you?

‘Yes...did they have music lessons? Extra coaching in sport? Is your house in a nice area?’

Mine do. yes, yes and yes. They’re very lucky. They’re already more privileged than so many kids. They’re white, they live in a nice area, they go to okay state schools, they have parents who value education, who have ability and time to help in that education,
they take part in hobbies that they live and that we can afford.
they’re going to have a much easier ride through life than many kids.

which is why I feel zero guilt about helping or favouring the graduates who had a similar upbringing to mine. An estate kid who still made it to college despite lack of money and opportunities growing up.

Have you seen that short film where they put a load of late teens on a running track for a race. They ask a series of questions. Each time you answer you no you take a stride back from the start line. Is your dad living at home? Is there always food on the table? Have you always been able to do any extra curriculars you choose? Do you always feel safe at home? Etc. Then they start the race and some kids try so hard and run so fast but because they’ve taken so many steps back they cannot win. Breaks my heart every time.

‘The issue with these low paid internships is that it’s very hard for someone who isn’t handed money by rich parents, or can live at home in London* or within a commutable distance, to undertake them.’

yup. In publishing even the entry level jobs for grads are so low paid many can’t take them unless they’re living at home or having parents help.

I’ve been trying to get my employer to offer an apprenticeship that pays a living wage AND has some kind of bursary attached to it, and it’s been a nightmare of red tape and ‘nos’ so far. We are literally a billion ££ + company.

the issue is the people who need to sign off in this are the types who don’t believe people really need food banks in the U.K., don’t believe that some 21/22 year olds really DO have to live independently ( the last WC girl I hired was a foster kid who’d been supporting herself from age 16 pretty much),
or they’ve bought into the narrative of the plucky working class kid, who gets full scholarships, works nights, and still excels at everything. The bar is so much higher for some reason for the children who’ve had the toughest road.

For entry level posts how can you tell the skills and whether they fill a gap?

we can argue that someone from a state school or a background different from the team will do that - I can see that for advertising - a range of perspectives to reach a range of customers

Also if it’s that close both will be “strong” candidates so almost certain that either one would be a perfectly good choice,

Yeah they are juniors - what’s all this talk of having the right skills?! All the recruiter
has is ro go on is raw material /exam results /interests / arguably back ground.

Yeah they are juniors - what’s all this talk of having the right skills?!

Depending on the industry, coding skills, IT skills, technical skills, language skills for example.

For entry level posts how can you tell the skills and whether they fill a gap?
You don't think someone who knows their team is able to identify where the gaps are in their team, and in the event of having a couple of good applicants make a judgement which one would work well for the team? They probably shouldn't be in recruitment then, after all they would struggle to decide between 3 adults who were state educated too as it's impossible to make a recruitment decision unless you know where they went to school at 11.

This is the very end of whatabout, but whatabout, but what if by magic all the programmes to address structural inequalities were done, and whatabout at the end ...
None of which is that relevant to someone binning an application based on the fact they don't like the choices of the applicant's parent.

‘For entry level posts how can you tell the skills and whether they fill a gap?’

its about attitude and general work experience for me. I’ll take someone who worked PT at Maccy Ds all through their A Levels, or Uni over the candidate who’s parents paid for everything and were able to give them an allowance every time.
I had a candidate who’s ‘experience’ included volunteering teaching children to ride ponies at a horse centre ( on checking it was a private club) and working as a ski instructor for free ski-ing and board on a gap year. Which was fine, but I had little use for someone who could ski well. Or taught small posh children how to groom a horse.
Offered the job to the candidate who worked in the Uni library and at Pizza Hut instead. She had to learn new systems, IT, work with all sorts of people and worked both jobs at the same time all through uni.

If they have got that far through the process presumably their skill sets similar?

Depending on the industry, coding skills, IT skills, technical skills, language skills for example.
Yes, or ways they've found to develop their interests in the field, or whether one has a more accessible way of presenting and explaining that will go down better with clients.
Or knowing your team and team dynamics and thinking about collaboration across the team, or having an idea of how you'd be allocating staff to different projects.

And, shh, different companies might make a different choice between the 3 applicants depending on what the company needed at that time, or the same company might have gone with any of the 3 under different circumstances.

Unless of course people want us to believe there's no difference at all in two or three people other than their education choice at 11.

So the decision does come down to personality raw material and “fit” for the team. The last is dodgy though the “fit” at my old team was male white public school easy going.

So the decision does come down to personality raw material and “fit” for the team. The last is dodgy though the “fit” at my old team was male white public school easy going.
Considering the team is common sense. It doesn't mean fitting in or being the same.

If you had 3 applicants all state educated then you'd make a decision about which one to appoint.

So if apparently there's no difference in candidates other than whether they're educated privately or in the state sector, what do you do?

After all recruiters can't tell the difference between candidates and they're wrong for considering the strengths and weaknesses of the team, and they're either wrong for considering how a candidate would relate to clients or simply aren't capable of judging this.

They probably shouldn't be in recruitment if they wouldn't be capable of assessing which of 3 state educated applicants to appoint.

If they have got that far through the process presumably their skill sets similar?

How far in the process? Applying to a graduate scheme?

Why would you assume that the skill sets of two applicants are similar?

Fit for us is well defined - everyone is given a copy of fit before the interview, it has nothing to do with being white, male and public schooling - it relates to your attributes, values and how you like to work, and our staff are rewarded for living our values which very often reflect how they treat other people in the team.