To think being prejudiced against the privately educated is OK

[EastLondonObserver]

I have spent 25 years working in the advertising industry at some of the most highly regarded agencies in the world. Most of these have been dominated (in certain roles, at least) by the privately educated who gained their entry to the industry through having personal/family contacts in it, were subbed by rich parents while working in low-paid or free internships to gain experience and had that empty confidence private schools instil.

Perfectly capable graduates educated comprehensive schools didn't get much of a look in. However a few managed to break through, including myself.

Consequently, throughout my career I have actively rejected almost all privately educated graduates applying for entry level positions. This runs into hundreds of applicants. I have managed to do this without being called out. Sometimes I have rejected them even when they clearly would have done a better job than a comprehensive school educated alternative. These were corporate companies - it made no meaningful difference to me if they were mildly less successful as a consequence. The only exception was one graduate educated at Harrow and Bristol. I gave him the job as an experiment. He was average at best.

I did this in the name of social justice: re-distributing opportunities away from those with unearned privilege.

Have I been unreasonable? Has anyone else done the same?

We need to make it very very clear we intend to reduce admissions from independent schools' said a Cambridge Vice-chancellor in May. OP has made it very very clear that a similar swathe of independent candidates might need rejection in her industry for fairness.
Really, what's the difference.

The method chosen.

If Cambridge decide they are going to bin UCAS applications purely for a teenager being independently educated then that's ridiculous.

If they decide that they want to increase contextual offers, do more to reach sixth forms and colleges that typically have lower progression to top universities, improve education partnerships at secondary level so that more state educated children can see Cambridge as a viable opportunity for children like them, run summer schools where through projects and staff observations potential applicants from disadvantaged backgrounds could have their offers reduced, and use some of their funds to improve access to financial support for students who would have financial barriers to studying at Cambridge, then absolutely excellent news and of course it's a good idea.

@JamimasBut diversity is good business. Do keep up.

The way I see it, it doesn't matter against whom you're prejudiced. Prejudiced people will all have a whole pile or reasons why it's okay to be prejudiced against this particular category of people. Oh, look at these awful migrants who steal jobs from meritorious brits. Oh, look at these awful rich brats who steal jobs from the more deserving working class. It's the same toxic mindset, however you justify it to yourself.

Prejudice is prejudice. Either you think it's okay, or you don't. Obviously you think it's fine. The funny thing is you probably don't think it's fine to be discriminated against because you're a woman. But people who do are only doing the same thing you are, just to a different demographic. As if that makes it okay.

And that's wrong. But two wrongs don't make a right.

diversity is good business

Absolutely. That's why companies should recruit blind and choose the best applicants regardless of background. Given two equally good candidates, hire the woman/ethnic minority/any other underrepresented group.

I think most posters agree with the idea that diversity is great, but binning applicants whose schools you don't like makes no business sense, especially if they are actually better suited candidates (as the op states)

I agree that ops actions are not ideal in a perfect world but after decades of efforts private school alumni still dominate the upper echelons of pretty much everything lucrative so I am struggling to passionately condemn it.

Just remember the utter frustration of several colleagues who were technically awesome hard working and great lawyers but were female and frankly stroppy so were not made up by the boys club that was partnership at a magic circle firm. They made up one of their own instead. Outreach programmes and warm words weren’t going to help them those women.

@Jamimas diversity is good business, so you set a target that 25% of your staff should be non-independently schooled. It's obviously nothing like the 95% that is the actual population but you need to start somewhere. So by hiring blind, ie not looking at where someone went to school, you are going to achieve that diversity target how?

TheaBrandt
Decades or fairly poor efforts to be honest.

Unfortunately a lot of the inequalities start young, often before a child gets to school.
It's one reason why some children are eligible for free early years education from 2, because it's acknowledged that not all children get the same early start. It's far from perfect, but people still moan about it.

It's complex and more needs to be done long before young adults are applying for their first jobs.

Too low was looking at law...say 55%

‘The difference? One is a publicly funded place of learning. The other is a private company looking to maximise earnings.’

ah yes, of course. Will no-one think of the CEOs earning 100s x their average employees…

So by hiring blind, ie not looking at where someone went to school, you are going to achieve that diversity target how?

That assumes that the diversity target is more important than finding the best candidates?

Totally not being unreasonable.

I’m in my 30s now but got a job interview at Saatchi & Saatchi as a new graduate. They told me I’d have to do an (unpaid) internship first. As a kid from a comp who grew up rurally I couldn’t for the life of my understand where I’d live or how I’d pay for it! In all my naivety, I didn’t make the connection that kids would be funded by parents or live with rich London parents. Honestly, these unpaid internship kids will be running the place now. Redress the balance wherever you can!

I'm actually curious now. @EastLondonObserver, if you have children, did you purposely send them to the worst school in your area so as not to give them a "leg up" ? I mean clearly you can afford it, seeing as you're so successful. I hope you made sure they weren't tutored in any subjects if they struggled, either. You wouldn't want to give them unfair advantages over anyone.

*I mean clearly OP could have afforded private schools seeing how successful she is.

Also curious what you children think of it, if you didn't send them to the best school available. Think they'll thank you for it ?

‘Honestly, these unpaid internship kids will be running the place now. Redress the balance wherever you can!’

agreed. I turned down an Oxbridge place after the interview where the snotty questioners banged on about my ‘lack’ of ‘rounded’ extra curriculars, and told me under no circumstances would I be able to work while studying as they doubted my education thus far would have left me ‘robust’ enough to cope.
wankers. I told them I would need to support myself and there was a lot of ‘you need to find another way’ blah blah blah
They knew my background, they knew I was a council estate scholarship kid. Not everyone has parents who can find their education, living expenses, internships.
intold them to stuff it and went to a Uni that actually wanted me, gave me hardship money, and we’re understating of me working 30 hrs a week in top of study.

I’m as resilient as hell now. And have zero regrets about turning down the opportunity to go to one of the ‘best’ universities.

Sickening. What bastards. That’s how the circle is kept tight - all unspoken but they know the outcome 🙄.

Sorry I am quite cynical about this as Dh and I appear posh and have always moved and worked in circles where pretty much everyone else is privately educated and they assume we are too so we got to hear the behind the scenes comments 🙄.

I can't believe this thread is still going. I think it must be feeding the OPs sense of self importance. I'm state school educated by the way and totally disagree with this method of recruitment. Many quality companies now outsource their recruitment so this poor behaviour will be in the minority.

Exactly! Favouring certain unis/schools/friends of dad have gone on for years

did they put on their websites that recruitment policy?

Yes and when Cambridge (or a company) has done all that and still has 2/3 to choose from then what? Someone makes a choice. The OP might then choose the state school person - would you?

‘Sorry I am quite cynical about this as Dh and I appear posh and have always moved and worked in circles where pretty much everyone else is privately educated and they assume we are too so we got to hear the behind the scenes comments 🙄.’

same. I have a regional accent and well spoken so my WC roots don’t show in my accent the way they would if I was English.

At work I hear all sorts as they assume I’m the same as them… we were discussing secondary schools as we’re choosing for next year and I said D.C. would be going to the local state secondary.
there was a big pause, then my boss said, won’t that be a bit of a shock after private? No, cos D.C. are in state primaries.
apparently I’m ‘brave’ for not choosing private schools, and a couple of colleagues genuinely flummoxed as to why I would choose state schools.
it was almost comical. I’m senior, and DP is in the same industry and well-known so money’s not the issue.
I choose my answers carefully so not to offend but the reality is I want my kids to be normal, mix with normal people from normal backgrounds, not just privileged kids. As it is our incomes already give them so many more advantages than either me or DP had as kids

In in the same industry as OP and also comp educated. I can see the frustration to a degree. But seriously this must have been some commitment to the cause. What did you do OP Google every single school?! For example there are about 8 King Edwards in Birmingham - how did you tell which is the private?!

If I were choosing between two new grads with similar grade profiles I’d go with the state educated one over the privately educated one every time because I’d assume they’d outperformed in real terms given their access to educational resources.

Likewise if someone goes to Eton and gets straight As (where they have 40 rugby pitches and god knows how many chem labs) I’d assume they were less impressive than someone else with straight As. There are quite a few old etonians in my friendship circle who have done very cool things - yet I’m always careful to adjust how impressed I feel because I know it wasn’t quite as hard for them as a ‘normal’ person!

I’m actually surprised people don’t always take this stuff into account when making hiring decisions and would have assumed we all do the occasional Google of someone’s school, like me, OP and other people I’ve discussed this with! It’s like a reverse old boys network and I think everyone is a bit aware this kind of thing happens. My partner chooses not to put his (private) school on his LinkedIn while I’m quite clear on mine I went to a comp because I think it makes my achievements that little bit more impressive!

Exactly - this sort of thing (or now very low paid internships) is rife!

@fannyfartlet

I can't believe this thread is still going.

I know - it’s great how there are so many Mumsnetters who are as keen as I am
to dismantle unearned privilege, isn’t it?

I think it must be feeding the OPs sense of self importance

So let’s stop discussing important issues of diversity, equality, employment ethics and social justice shall we?

You can do better, I know.