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Original poster

Zero hour questions

23 replies

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 09:58

Hello

Im so confused by my contract and the legal side of it so looking for some advice.

I am a care worker. My contract states Zero Hour in the top corner of it. I have asked my HR dept a few times on clarification of what that means. I was told that they don’t technically offer ZH contracts as because of the nature of the work, if you tell them you can’t do a shift in advance, you are expected to swop it for another day when you wouldn’t be working. And also you gave availability at the application process therefore you have agreed to do those days.

i have looked at acas. It states:

If you have a zero-hours contract:

your employer does not have to give you any minimum working hours
you do not have to take any work offered

My question to them was why, with advance notice when I can’t do a shift, do I need to swop when legally I don’t have to? The response was that in this industry, it’s ‘expected’ and also when the job was first applied for and the availability forms completed, they’ve always given me shifts on the days I said I can do (obv) but when I’ve given advance notice of not being available, it’s always “when will you swop to?”. EG, my husband has a training course coming up so I’ll be unavailable for 5 days. I’ve been told to take holiday or swop. Is that right? All acas advice suggests it’s not!

can anyone shed some light? I really need to understand this as it’s stressful worrying about when can move swopped shifts to.

Thank you for reading and any advice received.

OP posts:

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 10:07

Dd is on a zero hours contract. It means that she does not have to accept work offered and she does not have to be offered work but once she accepts a shift (eg when the rota is produced) then she has committed and it would be disciplinary if she didn't turn up without having organised a swop.

She has to give her availability by a certain day each month then the rota is produced. (in practice they know she usually does set days). It sounds like your employer is not doing this?

Ultimately it sounds like they are not doing things right but you have to balance this fact against the fact that they could just stop offering you work.

LindaEllen · 01/09/2022 10:11

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 10:07

She has to give her availability by a certain day each month then the rota is produced. (in practice they know she usually does set days). It sounds like your employer is not doing this?

Ultimately it sounds like they are not doing things right but you have to balance this fact against the fact that they could just stop offering you work.

The problem is, you say she needs to balance it against the fact they could stop offering her work - that's a HUGE problem when everyone has that attitude. You DON'T need to put up with them breaching your contract. You really DON'T.

My DP has just been in a huge dispute with his work. He works PT at 20hrs/week (because we run a small business as well) but because they are always short staffed they just put the PT staff in for more hours. He was averaging 35 hours/week. Whenever he brought it up his manager said there was nothing he could do about it as they weren't taking on more staff. According to his contract, overtime must be agreed between both parties, and any hours above his contracted hours need to be asked about before being put on rota.

It took months and he's been right to the top and through the union but finally he's getting his contracted hours.

Now the rest of the team are pissed off at him because they're getting more hours, but they need to FIGHT for their own rights, and MAKE this joke of a company hire enough staff for what they need to do!

NellesVilla · 01/09/2022 10:13

Sounds like they to be able to have their cake and eat it.

Zero hours= zero commitment from either side.

I've recently left an admin job at a care company and although it was expected that our zero hour staff gave us their availability each month, technically they didn’t owe us anything, plus we/care facilities could cancel a shift at any time.

One of the reasons I couldn’t work in this industry anymore. Care staff are crapped on all the time and it’s not fair. We had some of the most awful staff and some of the most fabulous carers- none of whom deserved to be mucked about.

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 10:14

The difference with your husband is that he has contracted hours. The risk to him in standing up for his rights was far less than to someone on a zero hours contract.

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 10:15

plus we/care facilities could cancel a shift at any time.

At least at my dd's place they don't do this. If they don't give a certain amount of notice that a shift is cancelled then they pay her anyway.

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 10:15

She's not in care though

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 10:15

Just to clarify, I don’t have to submit weekly or monthly availability, it was a form completed at application that they now base all my work on going forwards.

im not Bank Staff and I am not contracted to X amount of hours per week. I am ZH.

OP posts:

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 10:17

They are definitely not doing it right? How short-staffed are they? (what is the risk to you in simply saying, no, this isn't happening?)

TheTeenageYears · 01/09/2022 10:23

It seems to mean a very one sided process. When DD was on a zero hours contract she was sometimes scheduled to work 5 shifts in a week but they were often cancelled the night before, on the day or made shorter whilst already working. Never again, it was a steep learning curve. I didn't get as far as calling ACAS but an employer can write anything in a contract so it looks like you have to say swop a shift rather than tell them you are unavailable but i'm not sure they could enforce legally, they do however have you over a barrel if you want to keep the job. I think there should come a point where there must be commitment from an employer, say when the rota is finalised. Being able to schedule people to work and then cancel them at the last minute should not be legal.

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 10:33

They are wrong, ACAS is right, but as PP said, they want their cake.

If I was you, I would put in writing a change to your availability, and give a month's notice of any changes (depending on the advance rota notice you receive). They might dismiss you, but it sounds like they need you more than you need them, and care work seems to be in abundance.

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 10:40

they could just stop offering you work

They are very short staffed so they wouldn’t do this and if they did, I’d love to a new job. That probably sounds daft but I would if I needed to.

plus we/care facilities could cancel a shift at any time.

This particular company haven’t ever cancelled a whole shift dos an individual. They’ve removed clients when they’ve cancelled a call, but never the whole shift.

They are definitely not doing it right? How short-staffed are they? (what is the risk to you in simply saying, no, this isn't happening?)

Very short staffed. I do completely get it. And I’d never say on the morning of a shift that I don’t want to work, that’s not what I mean, but giving them 4+ weeks notice is surely adequate for them to be notified? As for the risk factor, they could refuse me work, I understand that and have spoken to them about their side but they’ve always said it’s expected that there’ll be a swop.

an employer can write anything in a contract so it looks like you have to say swop a shift

Theres nothing in my contract about shift swopping. I’ve read it numerous time to check I’ve not missed that info and it’s not there.

OP posts:

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 10:45

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 10:33

They are wrong, ACAS is right, but as PP said, they want their cake.

Every time I’ve needed to let them know I won’t be available I always email them now so there’s a paper trail of sorts.

Rotas are issued Friday’s for the Saturday-Friday following. I give way more notice than they plan rotas for unless I’m exceptional circumstances. But it’s always for a shift swop rather than “I’m simply unavailable”.

It probably sounds awful but yes, care work is in abundance and whilst I love the job I don’t “need” it 100%. I just want them to honour what the law states, for when I need flexibility, and they aren’t!

OP posts:

Comefromaway · 01/09/2022 11:00

In which case I would call their bluff.

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 11:05

This sounds like you are doing everything right.

I personally would formally amend or even withdraw your previous availability in writing, so they can't keep saying that you agreed to them.

Mossstitch · 01/09/2022 11:09

I'm zero hrs contract, (NHS) they ask me to do shifts I say yes or no without any comeback. I thought that was the whole point of zero hours contracts no commitment from either side.

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 11:10

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 11:05

This sounds like you are doing everything right.

I personally would formally amend or even withdraw your previous availability in writing, so they can't keep saying that you agreed to them.

The only way I can do this is by going on to Bank Hours where they would potentially only give my a days notice of a shift.

Ive recently submitted a form to drop one day on a non-working weekend week and 3 weeks later, I’m still waiting to know if it’s been ‘approved’! (Incase anyones interested, they wanted to know my reasons WHY I wanted to change availability and also, how my request would not negatively affect the business to which I replied “personal reasons”!!).

OP posts:

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 11:35

Mossstitch · 01/09/2022 11:09

I'm zero hrs contract, (NHS) they ask me to do shifts I say yes or no without any comeback. I thought that was the whole point of zero hours contracts no commitment from either side.

Exactly this. I need flexibility because of my husbands job and childcare. That’s why ZH is perfect. Until now!

OP posts:

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 11:43

Well, it seems you either follow their incorrect processes, give notice and leave, or be more confident and follow the law. How are they going to make you work shifts that you've informed them you can't work? What's the worst they can do?

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 11:55

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 11:43

Well, quite! The worst they do is take work off me and they lose a good worker!

OP posts:

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 12:57

Yes, you are valuable and it is time to be more assertive! I can't believe that they think they are correct, so it sounds like their tactic is to bully, confuse and overwork you into submission.

Zero hours should work for you to give you flexibility. Accept or refuse shifts to suit you, with the risk they won't offer you any or fewer shifts.

You should look out for other companies/ agencies in the meantime.

Also, I'm not sure if I correctly understood what you wrote earlier. Have they assigned you a shift on a weekend that is not part of your availability, and after 3 weeks have still not confirmed that they have taken you off that shift?

Original poster

ZeroHrConfused · 01/09/2022 13:33

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 12:57

Yes, you are valuable and it is time to be more assertive! I can't believe that they think they are correct, so it sounds like their tactic is to bully, confuse and overwork you into submission.

Zero hours should work for you to give you flexibility. Accept or refuse shifts to suit you, with the risk they won't offer you any or fewer shifts.

You should look out for other companies/ agencies in the meantime.

Sorry if I’ve confused! On the week that I would have a weekend off, I have requested to drop a day off midweek (I’d normally work mon-Fri) So I’d get 1 weekday off and the whole weekend off also. And yes I’m still waiting for a reply to the request, 3 weeks later.

Also I am thinking of ringing other companies to see what they offer. Flexibility is important really.

OP posts:

hedgehoglurker · 01/09/2022 14:56

Flexibility is the only advantage of zero hours for the employee, but they aren't giving it to you. It's all take take take from them!

I was on zero hours working for a school caterers. I was the only one on zero, as everyone else was happy on contracted hours, but I only did a few hours a week to cover gaps in the schedule. This worked for me to fit in with other work, childcare, etc. My children attended the school and I could walk there in a few minutes, so I didn't mind the terribly low pay.

I was very flexible and always accepted the shifts working around my colleagues as we arranged it between ourselves. I even completed extra training so I could cover all roles including the cook, and happily covered them all as necessary at even just a few hours notice.

Then, my youngest and a colleague's youngest were starting in reception, which was 2 weeks of mornings only. I gave 4 or 5 months notice that I couldn't work those two weeks, which our manager accepted, as I was zero hours.

All of my colleagues were really upset with me though for not helping to cover her, as she needed to call in favours and family for childcare. (I couldn't take her child for various reasons.) It wasn't my fault though and our manager backed me up in a team meeting, as the flexibility I offered the team was the reason that I was happy to be vulnerable on zero hours, as opposed to the stability she wanted on her contracted hours.

Stay strong, and hopefully you'll soon have a better job where you are appreciated by your employers. Care work is such an important role, it's short-sighted that employers are probably driving valuable staff away with these tactics.

WeAreRuined · 01/09/2022 15:48

Ds was on a 4 hour contract this summer - the shoe retailer decided they owned their week - slotted in hours whenever they felt like it - it's a shitty way to run a business and a shitty way to treat people - he did swap shifts but found it very stressful to arrange, he spoke to ACAS who told him they had no right to rota him above the 4 hours. I'll be encouraging him to write up his experience on Glassdoor.

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