Secret Notes on Employees

[DisgruntledGirl]

It has recently come to my attention that my managers have secret documents on all of the employees listing every mistake they have made at work.
The document has the date/time, description of the mistake, and the person who 'reported it'.

As far as I am aware none of the employees know about these documents (I only happened to see it briefly on my manager's pc). And 'reported it' is in italics because we do not have an official reporting procedure, if something is not done right we occasionally just work around it, if it was a larger mistake, we may just mention it to the manager casually (just in case the clients noticed, at least the manager is aware) and other times when we gather, we may also casually tell the person "oh, by the way, you forgot to do this".

But apparently, there is a secret log of all of these mistakes, and we aren't even aware that we are kind of 'officially' reporting one another.

These notes are definitely unethical however are they wrong or illegal?
Surely they cannot fire/promote certain people based on secret disciplinary notes?
And surely we should be able to view our own documents?
The fact that we cannot, means that these notes are seen as definitive, and we do not get to dispute the 'facts' or share our point of view.

No they are not wrong or illegal - and I am struggling to understand why you think they are unethical? They are not your documents. They are managers notes on performance matters relating to their staff. Managers keep notes all the time - why would you think otherwise?

I think you are over-egging this. Just because a manager keeps notes on their staff does not make them "secret". And they are not disciplinary notes. Although I think it a little naïve to think that promotion takes no account of performance in work; or that the precursor to disciplinary / performance measures is not observed deficiencies. If someone's performance is poor, then a manager has a responsibility to be able to document that and to explain what improvement is needed / support available to improve. They can't do so if they have no records!

I am more concerned about the fact that you were able to read your managers screen, however briefly. In terms of information security this is not good - personal information (which this is) should not ever be visible to someone who does not have authority to view it.

Yeah I don't find this so odd. It could be used maliciously to manage someone out, but it could also be being used productively to identify training needs for individual employees. A lot would depend on the culture of your workplace. Even if it was being kept negatively there is nothing illegal in a workplace recording the performance of its staff.

It happens where I work. I would say it's confidential rather than secret, as it is raised in meetings with the person. Mostly it records lateness, failure to do tracking or reporting on time, absences etc.

I think it is wrong and unethical as we have not been informed about these files, of course they are allowed to keep records but they should tell their employees that they are doing this.

For example:
If they were to have a meeting with me, tell me I am fired/demoted based on my performance. Surely the list cannot be used in evidence as I was unaware of it, how could I improve my performance if I did not know I was under-performing?

If I was informed every time they had a grievance then I could accept it or argue against my case against it. If I am not told about it, and they ask me to explain myself 4 months down the line for example, then there is no way I could remember the specifics of the issue as it was so long ago, and it becomes the 'list's' word against mine.

It seems like a way to stop us from arguing our case and defending ourselves.

I also found this on GOV.UK:
"An employee has a right to be told what records are kept and how they’re used"

(a) These are management notes - not "records".
(b) You have not provided any evidence that they are used in the way that you suggest.
(c) If your manager told you that you were not doing your job all that well and were going to be placed in performance measures, wouldn't you expect them to be able to evidence their case? The law certainly would, if they then fired you!
(d) Unless you have less than 2 years service, then you cannot be fired or demoted without a lawful cause, and evidence that the employer had followed a lawful process, which would include using evidence of the problems to work with you to correct the situation, and clear target setting - neither of which can be done without evidence of the problems. If you have less than 2 years service it's moot - you can be fired or demoted for almost anything and just have to suck it up.

I honestly think that you are being naïve to think such notes don't exist / shouldn't exist, but if you wish to lodge a grievance you can do so, and you can also lodge a SAR to gain copies of everything relating to you. I doubt very much that anything will change, because what they are doing is not wrong, and it is sensible management. But it might paint that target on your back that you seem so concerned about.

Under GDPR regulations you have a right to access all records that are made about you. You can formally request to see these records. All records should be processed fairly with the level of detail that is sufficient for its use.

I agree they are notes and not records. If your performance is an issue then the company will have to follow performance improvement policy - not just fire or demote you. Equally if someone has a grievance against you then if it's dragged up in months' time, then "I don't remember" is a valid response from you. It sounds like you are really concerned about your company's internal policy and how they treat you - which is a bigger problem.

I'm a line manager. When I talk to the people I line manage I might make notes such as "X struggled with task ABC". It's a note to myself to catch up with them later to see if it's getting easier, or to look into training/mentoring. It's not evidence to be used against them at a later date! Equally someone might email me to say that one of my direct reports had not done something - again I'd make a note and probably follow up with them, either directly or part of a wider conversation. Part of being a manager is -er - managing staff. You can't do that without knowledge and information about their performance.

How do you know?

What would happen if someone did a subject access request asking for all information held about them?

Whilst it's mildly distasteful the way they have done it you are really overegging this.

It's not a court of law where things can be automatically inadmissable in most cases. That said , no it can't be used directly as performance management at the end. So you shouldn't be dismissed about it or recieve a warning but yes of course it can be used to start a PIP. A pattern that isn't being resolved needs evidence and times and dates to start a PIP.

Has it occurred to you in your self righteous ire that sometimes this is about managers being aware that mistakes get made but trying to be proportionate but not naive in their response. Often it's unfair to go down a PIP route. However if the same issue repeats even after its dealt with it could be a performance issue. You have to wait for a pattern before it's reasonable to censure someone.

I was a senior manager for a long time sometimes I would gently and unofficially remind someone the first time they made a mistake. Maybe even the second. By the 3rd same mistake it's a training issue. I don't have to just forget the first two. However I was often being decent by not acting on the first.

However to go down a pip route recording is key. You can't just suddenly start from the third occurrence. However if you have tried to support the person and they have chosen not to listen it's not at all unreasonable to have recorded it . It wouldn't be used unless the person refused to resolve the issue.

Also be very careful what you wish for. I have had many situations where I promise you my team did not want to know what others said about them. I was busy keeping it off of their backs and fixing it behind the scenes if it was unfair. Or dealing with it more fairly.

If you are a good manager your job is to manage the behaviours in the fairest way and support the business at the same time but that doesn't mean announcing every transgression, nor does it mean ignoring mistakes that you think you have all fixed by yourselves.

You can of course see these under GDPR. That is your right. You would be very silly to unless you have real reason to believe they are used unfairly. There is nothing unethical about their existence (you don't appear to entirely understand what unethical means ) only if they are used in an unethical way.

Unless it's being used actively against you and its untrue I'd grow up a bit and calm down.

I manage a team and as a company we have regular reviews throughout the year. I often keep notes of both their successes and things they need to work on so I can refer back when preparing for their reviews, or justifying pay rises, bonus payments, promotions etc. None of these notes ever come as a surprise to my direct reports as we have weekly or fortnightly 121s where we discuss these things as they crop up.

I think many of you are getting too swept up with the fact I put "NOTES" in the title. These documents are definitely RECORDS, they RECORD our mistakes, the date and time they happened, what happened, the consequences of the mistakes, and who reported them.
And employees should be told about records kept on them. They are not just some "notes-to-self" they make, they are documents stored on a cloud drive they all access and update.

So far no action (that I know of) has been taken, but they are keeping them for a reason, whether that is positive or negative, it still affects our jobs and therefore should be admitted.

And I am not being naive to think that the notes do not exist, I literally said that I am happy for them to exist, it is the not telling the employees about the records they keep on them that is the issue.

If they're making notes where individuals are identifiable it's fine provided they're complying with the companies data protection rules. These notes would almost certainly be declared and accessible same as any other.

under gdpr you can request a copy of what notes they have about you. They will probably not tell you who reported each instance

Some rather unpleasant responses from managers here...

As a manager I make my own notes during regular one to one meetings with my staff or performance reviews/appraisals so I can keep track of workloads, issues and what was discussed in general. Those are just my personal notes so I don't forget anything and they are not shared with anyone else within the organisation. I will usually follow a one to one meetings with an email reminding the team member what was discussed and agreed tasks and so on so everyone knows where they stand. A more formal appraisal is followed by a written document that both of us can keep and refer to.

If there are issues with a team member's performance I will raise this with them as soon as they happen and keep my own manager (usually I report to CEOs) informed when we have our own one to ones that I have concerns about a specific employee if the mistakes are a regular occurrence. I will keep notes of all my dealings with the employee but they will be fully aware that there is an issue and of what is expected of them to address it.

I absolutely don't see the logic as a manager of keeping an official, random log of everyone's mistakes if the manager then does not follow this up in a timely fashion with discussion with the employee to make sure the mistake does not happen again.

As the OP has identified unless you point out the mistake quickly and made it clear to the employee what should have been done they won't remember months later what the incident was about (should it be mentioned to justify a performance improvement plan) and they will never learn/correct the behaviour.

Also if what the OP is saying is that there is a culture of people ratting on each other/reporting other people's mistake or managers making notes of every conversation then that makes for a rather unpleasant work environment.

To me it just sounds like poor management.

I'm struck by how easily you seem to have accessed these notes/ records or whatever we agree they are.
That worries me more than anything and I'm sure if you've accessed them other people have.
Presumably they could get around it by calling them risk registers or whatever but I'd be really concerned at how easily accessible these notes seem to be. Photograph or screenshot them if you can as they may disappear.

I understand you considering them records, but in management's view they could be considered note s, even if technically they are records.

as for keeping them, they would be useful as a guide e.g. for promotions,
e.g. You need a security guard for a vault, but not sure which staff to promote as all would be qualified. However if you have notes that eg x person is always falling asleep, then you know not to consider that person.

plus overall J Edgar hoover used similar notes but off the books, but for various members of the population.

They are allowed to keep whatever notes they like about you. It’s sounds like it’s only for there personal use as a reminder, they aren’t using it as evidence for a formal process. Only then might it be an issue.

I would suggest that you and your colleagues ask for an individual SAR on what your company is holding on each of you, including these "notes".

Sadly, I had experience of a junior colleague doing similar about me and I discovered she had foolishly stored it on a shared drive under the file title of "What LatteLady has done wrong"! I read it, printed it and then made a formal complaint. I then found another job and resigned... she however went on sick leave again with stress and "managed out". A nasty piece of work who really knocked my confidence.

Would you be so frantic if they just had a good memory instead?

In my company we have a section in the performance management system to record notes about performance throughout the year. Positive and negative. Performance should be discussed regularly with the staff member. The more notes recorded and conversations that have occurred make a much easier year end rating process and conversation.

Not unethical, not wrong and not illegal.

They are notes to help managers remember incidents should a future disciplinary arise.

WTF? You are totally reading too much into this. All our mangers have to makes notes. They might not do anything until it's cumulative.

I'm surprised at so many posters dismissing this as an issue.

Under GDPR, your employer has a duty to be transparent about data held on employees and to keep personal data secure. It sounds like your employer isn't adhering to either of these requirements.

As a manager, I would raise issues in one-to-ones, record those meetings appropriately and share the information with the employee. This way, they are aware of data held about them and have an opportunity to challenge anything recorded incorrectly, complying with legislation.

You could request access to information recorded about you. You could report any issues to the ICO. Given your employer's attitude, I think you might be better off looking for a new job with a more ethical employer.

But are subject to gdpr rules if the individual is identifiable.