Can the sack me for sickness absences connected to ongoing health issue?

[FriendOfTheCrows]

This is long but I will try to keep it brief.
I have worked for this company for eight years.
When I started working here they knew I had a joint replacement, it was done before I started working here.

Generally it's fine, sometimes I need to take a day off if i'm having a day.
This was never an issue previously, work have always been very understanding.

From the start of the pandemic we have all been WFH Full time, this was great for me because it meant I wasn't walking up and down the stairs multiple times a day to get to my office, so my days off sick was significantly reduced.

In August of last year I had an accident, I tripped down a couple of stairs and since then my joint has not been 'right'.
After the accident I had two months signed off sick.
My consultant is fairly confident he has a good idea what the issue is and I have been having lots of investigative scans, MRIs, x-rays, bone scans, et cetera for him to confirm his suspicion and figure out a treatment.

The problem I have is with the NHS being as it is my appointments are constantly cancelled or rescheduled.
I will get an appointment through, wait a month for it and then a few days before get a phone call saying it's been rescheduled and I'll receive another appointment, which then takes weeks to arrive and have to wait another month for the appointment.

It used to be that a bad day was my joint being really uncomfortable, I'd have difficulty moving and my sleep would be affected.
That is basically now the norm, a bad day is severe pain whenever I move.
it's really difficult.

In December I had a meeting with my manager and head of department (My former manager)
I met with the occupational health person and a report was done.
The OH recommended reduced hours and continued WFH which everybody agreed with and an action plan was drawn up, which was basically just to keep them updated.

Unfortunately because of all of the rescheduled appointments we are now in June and nothing much has changed.

Because of the way my hip is so far this year I've got quite a lot of time off sick.

Today I received an invitation to a "Informal Meeting about ill-health and sickness absence"
With my manager and head of department.

I've checked out my company policy and it basically reads like this is the first step to getting rid of me.
There was also a part about no right to a union rep at the meeting.
I spoke to my manager after I receive the invitation and he told me that he'd had a meeting with HR and they told him that we needed to do this informal meeting.

I'm so stressed out.
I know I've had a lot of time off sick,
I know it's not great for the company and I can see it from their POV, they are short staffed, my manager has hinted about me working a bit more than my reduced hours.
But even on the reduced hours and with time off sick I'm still getting all of my work done, my productivity hasn't dropped by that much.

Can they sack me?

The short answer to the stark question is yes. Not immediately, but in the longer term, if there continues to be a serious pattern of sickness absence then they can dismiss. You need to get hold of your employers sickness absence policy to find out the process specific to you, but broadly speaking, there will be a trigger point which, when exceeded, starts the formal process. They will then set a target about reducing your sickness and a review period. If you continue to be off sick that will then trigger the next stage. Broadly speaking they usually follow a similar set of stages to a disciplinary process, and if you exceed target sickness levels in the final stage, then dismissal is the outcome.

It doesn't, and shouldn't take account of whether you have done all your work - it is something of a blunt instrument that is simply about the amount of time you have off sick. The reason for that is because as soon as they start granting exceptions, then they have to give them to everyone. The only difference would be if something amounted to a disability when they may agree to set a different target - fo example my employers standard target is 9.5 days or no more three occasions of sickness in any 12 months, but because I am disabled my target is 13 days or 4 occasions.

If this is an informal meeting then it may be to (a) see if they can do anything to improve your attendance or get further assistance from OH, or (b) to warn you that if things don't improve then the formal process will start. Obviously there could be other things they want to discuss, but only they will know that. If the process is formal then you have a right to be accompanied, but you don't at an informal meeting. The fact is that they could go straight to a formal process, so in one way it's good that they haven't. But I suspect you are right and this is the writing on the wall - something will have to change, but it's speculation as to what that expectation is.

Thank you @Jalisco.

The absence and illness policy stats "Three or more incidents of sickness absence amounting to 10 or more days within the 12 month rolling period"

I've definitely had more than that off this year.

In the occupational health report it states that my issues would be covered under the equality act, do you think that would give me some leeway to the sickness policy days?

I do feel awful about how much time I have off,
I never realised it would take this long to get it sorted out,
But with the NHS the way it is I don't know house long it can take, even my consultant says he's never known it to be this bad,
he thought it would only be a couple of months and it's been dragging on for nearly a year.

I hate it, I'm miserable, I literally can't do anything, I can't walk my dog, I can't even walk around a supermarket without it starting to hurt, I can't drive for more than 30 minutes,
I've had to cancel a holiday, not go to planned events and things we had tickets for, I even missed my friends wedding.
All because I knew i would be able to manage them without ended up in pain unable to walk for days.

All the gp has done is prescribe me big boxes of high does codeine and sent me on my way.

I love my job, I love the company I work for and my colleagues, I hate having to call in sick, but when it's bad and I've had no sleep and I'm high from the painkillers sitting at my desk and working is just impossible.
I don't know what I'm supposed to do.

In short, yes they can. Make sure they go through their own published process.

So WFH is better for you? Could you do that permanently whilst your waiting for treatment?

I have no idea about what the law says, but aren’t you essentially disabled at the moment? Why are they talking about sickness rather than disability?

Definitely sounds like you are disabled. I'm sure you'd qualify for a blue badge, maybe even PIP.

Because sickness is sickness regardless of the cause.

I have tried to answer the OP's second post several times now but the site keeps losing my answer mid way through. I will try again later OP. Maybe they will have fixed it so that you can type more than three sentences!

If they’ve made adjustments and reduced your hours and allowed you to work at home I don’t think there’s much more they can do? It doesn’t sound like you’re got for work on an ongoing basis as it predates the accident? Would you be better claiming disability benefits?

They don’t have to classify disability as different from sickness absence as l found out to my bitter experience.

I suppose if you're disabled but working then they can make reasonable adjustments to make it easier for you to do so. But if your disability means you have to take lots of time off sick, no amount of reasonable adjustment is going to help that situation.

It's rotten luck OP. I hope you get your OP quickly. Do you have any private healthcare as part of your employment package? When I needed surgery and the NHS wanted me to wait 18 months, I used my employee BUPA.

Yes that's what I am doing, everyone else has gone back into the office, at least for part of the week, but part of my action plan was to stay WFH until I've received treatment.

Because the issue is probably about absences/days off sick, I don't think disability changes that does it?

My consultant already suggested that to me,
But from everything I've read on MN in the past about PIP assessments (as from what I was told you have to be claiming PIP to get a BB now) I'm very reluctant to put myself through that kind of process.

I wish I could.

Ironically I actually got the joint replacement done privately because I had health insurance with my previous job, the nhs refused to do it because I was too young (despite the fact I couldn't walk unaided)
But I left that job for this one and the policy offered here will not cover my joint replacement or any related issues at all as it's a pre existing condition, they wouldn't even let me pay extra for it.

I did ask the consultant about going private to speed things up but he advised against it during the investigation phase as could be very expensive.

The thing is I was fine before this, so once this gets sorted out I should be back to normal and able to work how I used to.

I don't want to claim benefits, I can't afford to stop working.

They can make reasonable adjustments but even with disability related sickness there is a limit. Do you take work time for your appointments too?

I would suggest asking for more WFH and use your own time where possible. I have inflammatory arthritis and have good days, bad days and hopeless days with a combination of pain and side effects from meds. My work lets me flex my hours (so work a later shift if I’m crap in the morning etc) and WFH mostly.

if your organisation is big enough for a full HR and Sickness policy, why on earth haven’t they got a lift? Or allow you to work downstairs? What if there were a fire?

Hi OP
I just checked the criteria and although it's not guaranteed you can apply, you will need to supply proof, but it will be easier than applying for PIP.

You definitely can if...
You are registered blind or severely sight impaired
You get Personal Independence Payment (PIP) under the “Moving Around” section or you scored 10 points on the criteria "cannot undertake any journey because it would cause overwhelming psychological distress to the claimant" (under "planning and following a journey").
You get the higher rate of the mobility component of Disability Living Allowance
You get the War Pensioners’ Mobility Supplement
You receive a benefit from the Armed Forces Compensation scheme

You might if...
You drive and have a severe disability in both arms
You can’t walk, or it’s very difficult to walk. For example, due to a permanent disability or psychological distress.
You’re a parent or carer applying for a badge for a child (under 3)
You’re terminally ill
You're a constant risk to yourself or other people in traffic or car parks.
In these cases, we may call you to get more information. You may also need to see someone who will check how well you can move. We'll let you know if that's neede

Yes I do, I'm not in control of when the appointment are as my consultant has me down as urgent, so they basically try to squeeze me in whenever they can.

It's a huge organisation with thousands of employees, the building I am in does have a lift between the ground and 1st floor, but my office is on the second, so I'd only skip half of the stairs.
However, the lift is literally the other side of the building from my office and where the car park is,
so it's actually less walking for me to use the back stairs right next to where my office is and the door that comes out into the car park, rather than using the main entrance and the lift.

Oh I didn't realise that @Magenta82, thank you.

I will have a look tonight.
Thank you.

If you are unfit for work then they can get rid of you, disabled, sick or not. They have already made adjustments to your working practices and unless you can suggest something that enables you to work that meets their business case and your needs then there really isn’t much else you can do. If they haven’t been following their own disability policy you could maybe cite that but it sounds like they have been accommodating.

The one thing I’d question is not taking a union rep with you. Informal or not you are entitled to have someone to support you, be that a colleague or union rep or lawyer.

Op, sorry to say, that they can and will dismiss for excessive sick leave.
This informal meeting is likely to be a warning that anymore sick will result in formal disciplinary process to start.
My work would likely do an occupational health capacity to work assessment and then put you on an attendance based performance improvement
Plan. So the next sickness would require a Dr note.

If your Bradford factor score is over 1000 they are likely to move to dismiss.
Plenty of Bradford factor calculators online.

But if you're working from home, being given concessions and still calling in sick all the time then you can't do your job. It'll be putting pressure on your boss and colleagues and you'll be unreliable.

It's rubbish to be in pain and have the delays. It's rubbish to be the manager or colleague of someone who is always sick too.

Can you call your consultant, tell him its been a year and your work are trying to fire you due to absence and you need to urgently sort it out ASAP

Can you get crutches or a wheelchair for a bit?

In our company you'd be put on a capability process, if you continued to have absence after an informal meeting. It sounds nicer but in actual fact it's a way to manage out people who, due to sickness absence, are not capable of doing their job.

I am not sure where you stand regards a disability reason, I know that ongoing and chronic illnesses can be covered under the disability discrimination act, but we managed out someone with a disability under the capability process, I won't go into the details but it was a last resort after years of huge periods of absence, the poor lady really was just unable to work in any capacity despite many reasonable adjustments.

I really hope things get better OP, It sounds like you want to work and that you are an asset to the company despite your absence . Good luck

It says in the policy that you are not entitled to a union rep in the meeting.

I've been reading the policies.

This is 100% a decision made by my manage.
It says in the policy that managers can decide to take no action or request an informal meeting.

The meeting is definitely going to be "you've had too much time off, you can't be off anymore"

I also found this.

“Time off for treatment and disability related sickness absence will be taken into consideration in the application of the sickness and absence procedure.”

I feel like I've basically got two options, get signed off again.
Or stop calling in sick, be logged in but just not at my desk, so not doing any work, just not being off sick.