Holiday - Is this legal?

[Iguessyourestuckwithme]

Hello.

I have just received an email from my work HR advising a change in holiday entitlement. I had recently queried it and they are changing holiday entitlement for all.

So basics. I work 40 hours over 4 days- their choice, and they change weekly with 1 day off plus the weekend. I have no control over these 4 days, even to the point that I cant schedule a doctors appointment because I don't know when working from 1 week to the next and can't ask to schedule my day off to be a certain day to book appointments such as my smear.

I recently was made aware that holiday days are 8 hours which means that when there has been a bank holiday I have had to work 32 hours over 3 days instead of 30 to make up that short fall.

So this is the wording of the email I need to sign.

"

As you are contracted to work 40 hours a week, each holiday day would be paid at 10 hours. As you would
not have a set day off each week due to the need of the business changing week to week. If you were to
book a full week off (Monday-Friday), it would be 5 days of holiday being used due to the fact you are
stating you are not available to work on one of those days if the business required you to work some hours.
Therefore, you would be paid 10 hours paid per holiday day booked, which would total to 50 hours paid to
you for the full week booked off.
As you would not have a set day off each week due to the need of the business changing week to week. If
you were to book a full week off (Monday-Friday), it would be 5 days of holiday being used due to the fact
you are stating you are not available to work on one of those days if the business required you to work
some hours. Therefore, based on the above example it could mean 9.5 hours paid per holiday day, which
would total to 47.5 hours paid to you for that week off.
We appreciate that the change in holiday allowance may come across as a loss due to it being 5.5 days less
than the 28 days (based on working 5 days a week), however with only working 4 days a week with a day
off, it means a large number of extra non-working days off across the year. "

Am I right in thinking that if I work 40 hours a week that if I book a week off I shouldn't have to use 50 hours holiday and that me working 40 hours over 4 days compressed does not equate to me having lots of extra days off rather that I have completed my workload.

They have also said I'm entitled to only 22 days but I thought it was 28 days legally?

Any help would be great!

I’m not an expert here, and I hope one will
come along but I would not ask staff to take holiday for more hours than they are contracted for. Seems ridiculous.

Presumably the 22 is 22 plus bank holidays. 21 plus bank holidays is the minimum I believe for a full time worker.

They can't make you take 5 full working days holiday if you book 4 days off. That's nonsense.

This lets you calculate your holiday entitlement: https://www.gov.uk/calculate-your-holiday-entitlement/y/hours-worked-per-week/full-year/40.0/4.0

28 fay's I believe is the legal minimum holiday allowance - are bank Holidays extra op?

Are you in a union? Speak to acas. They cannot deduct you an extra day just because you wouldn't be available - you're not available on the 5th day anyway!

It's like saying a Mon-Fri worker has to take 7 days worth of holiday if they want a full week off.

Holiday entitlement is legally measured in weeks not days.

5.6 weeks including bank Holidays.

Hr generally can't do maths or fractions though, I find.

No. No No No No No.
Do not sign that.

That's a bit confusing isn't it. If you're contracted for 4 days weeks with 10 hour days then your holiday should use the equivalent hours.

I'm not an expert though, hopefully a HR person will be along shortly

I'm not an expert either and I don't know if they are legally allowed to do that but it sounds like bollocks. Even if it is legal it's certainly unusual. I work two days a week and if i book two days annual leave then I get the week off.

So under these rules you would get paid 25% extra for any week you were on holiday? How bizarre.

how big is the company?

I would contact ACAS. They are usually good with this sort of stuff.
I'd think that your holiday would be worked out in hours though, not days?

Everything about this company sounds bizarre. Completely off the point, but I don't understand how they know they need you for 4 days a week but not which 4 days. If it was a matter of having suddenly busy periods, normally they would be asking for overtime, not different days. Surely if they have enough staff they could arrange things so that each staff member works set days?

My work put something like this into play last year. It's awful!
I have to book 5 days holiday even though I only work 3 days to get a full week's pay, if I only book the 3 days I don't get a full weeks pay!
Weekend staff (2 days) have to book off Monday to Friday to get a week's pay.
It's a sneaky way of getting you to use more holiday and they don't miss out on you working.

I usually understand employment contracts, but this is another level altogether, it’s way too complicated. Personally I wouldn’t sign it until you get it checked. Some solicitors specialise in employment law, maybe worth finding one of these. Or ask your HR dept for a meeting to discuss it.

That's so messed up, it's just going to make it even harder for people to cover the school holidays etc, I would be looking for another job if my place started doing this

I thik you would need to book 5 days in order to get awhole week off, as you are contracted 5 days a week. the fact that you compress the hours complicates things.
On day one, you work 10 hours but are paid for 8
Day two you work 10, paid for 8
Day three work 10 paid for 8
Day 4 Work qo, paid for 8
day 5 work 0 hours, Paid for 8.

or at least, thats the way I see it

That makes absolutely no sense, if you work 4 days a week then you would only need to book off 4 days to take a week off work.

Its either really badly worded or they are essentially diddling you out of 5 days holiday per year which would take you under the statutory minimum of 5.6 weeks. I would push back on this, you might have to raise a grievance if they don't backtrack or clarify.

They are so wrong.

A normal working day in your company is 8 hours, all full-time, Mon-Fri, employees are entitled to 28 days (including bank holidays) per annum. This equates to 224 hours.

You work full-time hours but over 4 days @ 10 hours per day. Therefore they can say that your holiday entitlement is reduced to 22.5 days BUT those are 10 hour days so you would get 225 hours of holiday per annum.

What they can't say is that if you book a whole week off you are using 5 days (50 hours) of your entitlement. You are not, your working week is 40 hours so a one week holiday should only be 40 hours (4 x 10 hr days).

Ignore the fact that they mention 'a larger number of non-working days across the year' it doesn't matter. You work full-time hours each week and they have obviously agreed to them being compressed into four days instead of five.

⅘ of 28 days is 22.4 days but each of your days would be 10 hours long

If it was done in hours then 5.6weeks x 40 hours gives 224 hours with each day of holiday being worth 10 hours.

And no you shouldn't be deducted 50 hours for taking 4 days holiday.

That would only make sense if they kept her holiday days at 8 hours - but they're making them 10 hours

Surely your holiday entitlement is a certain number of hours calculated on 28 days X 8 hours? So you would book 10 hours for a day off but 40 hours for a week.

Unless you have the entitlement of a full time employee (fte) you are being shortchanged

No. They've said they will deduct 50 hours from holidays but pay 47.5 hours pay (that's how I read it anyway)

Basically they are saying as you are normally 5 days available to work in any given week.
Now they require you to book these 5 days availability off rather than the 4 days you would be working.

To simplify, you have 16 days (4 weeks)+ BH allowance as holiday entitlement.

They are saying you can take 3 full weeks & random hours + BH allowance.

I hope this isn't legal, otherwise it's a sneky way to get rid of staff holiday quickly with the least impact on the business.

I hope someone in the know comes along!

You are entitled to 5.6 weeks holiday a year. As you work 4 days a week, that works out at 22.4 days. It sounds like they have been giving you 28 days, which is the entitlement for staff working 5 days a week, and now want to correct it. The way they are going about it is bonkers, however. They should reduce your entitlement to 22.5 days a year. A week off would then be 4 days from your entitlement. That is what they are saying this change will achieve.

If a day off previously counted as 8 hours despite the fact you actually work 10 hours, this isn't actually a change. Staff working 5 days a week have 224 hours holiday over the year. If each of your 28 days off counts as 8 hours, you also get 224 hours holiday over the year.

My view is that the way they have done this in the past was bonkers and the way they are proposing to do it now is also bonkers. I'm not certain I fully understand their proposal, but I think they are giving you the right amount of holiday.

It really doesn't sound legal or correct as OP is only contracted for 40 hours so a weeks holiday should only use up 40 hours of holiday not 50