not being paid further time off sick as i had 2 weeks off due to miscarriage!!!

[holidayneeded]

Hi, I work 3 days/week and in february, i had a miscarriage. I took 2 weeks off as i was morally and physically unwell... i had since one day off sick in may and one in december...i was not paid for a start for the one in may and after lots of e-mails and phone calls(which took one month to solve!)i got refunded....this time, the same thing happened (did not get paid) but payroll states that although this was pregnancy related, they still have to take the time of into consideration,... so as i was only entitled to 3 weeks off (9 days) per year, i could not be paid...i am mad as i feel HR and payroll are not right and feel some discrimination...is that wrong??

Firstly and most importantly my sympathy regarding the miscarriage.

In practical terms I think the best thing you could do is ask your local citizens advice bureau for advice - take a copy of your contract with you.

Legally your company do not have to pay you if off sick other than statutory sick pay. To qualify for this you have "waiting days" ie you may not qualify unless you are off for more than 3 days (and with sign-off from GP). The fact it was pregnancy related may have a bearing though - CAB would know.

However, many companies agree in their contracts to pay sick pay over and above the legal minimum. Check what yours says.

Not sure what the 3 weeks off is about...are they suggesting sick days come out of your holiday entitlement? They cannot set a maximum "days sick" but they may be saying your contract allows for 3 weeks sick at "normal pay" and then it reverts to SSP rules. - single days off sick, a few months apart would not qualify for this.

Sorry if I have confused you more - strongly recommend you talk to your local CAB. They will check out your personal situation and help you write formal letters to your employer if necessary.

Good luck

so sorry to hear about your miscarriage.

As dilbertina says, there is a waiting period for SSP so as the day in question was a single day you would not get this.

I am assuming that the 3 weeks a year paid sickness absence is your contractual entitlement? The only obligation on employers as far as pregnancy-related illness is concerned is that you cannot be disciplined for sickness absence relating to pregnancy. There is no obligation to pay you for pregnancy-related sickness if they would not normally.

So technically there is nothing illegal or discriminatory, they are presumably treating you as they would anyone else, so in that sense they are 'right'.

However morally I don't think they are behaving at all sympathetically towards you. Do you have a sympathetic manager who might be able to exercise a bit of discretion on your behalf? If not, would it be possible for you to ask for your day off in December to be taken out of your holiday entitlement if you have any left, at least that way you would get paid for it.

Sympathies again, it's really not what you need and not fair. But it isn't discriminatory or illegal.

Sorry to hear about your m/c.

I don't know about the legal side of things but as far as employer/employee relations go, this isn't the best way to generate good feeling. In my mind, its the same as having unpaid leave. It would certainly make me think twice about staying overtime by even 2 minutes! Haven't your employers heard of compassionate leave?

thank you all for your sympathy and advice...it seems that in this case i am not entitled to paid time off sick as i have been off sick for more than 10 days(including miscarriage) in a year...which is very tough as currently i am quite ill and do not dare takng it off sick... have used my last holidays (1 day left but keep it for when ds is ill) until april...manager not at all sympathetic as has no child herself...and i feel no support whatsoever as i am doing a full time job(manager) part time but never get any gratitude or worse my manager keeps borrowing my staff for other shops even if i do not agree...always am penalised as my shop is quieter than others...i will check again with the citizen bureau....
it is so hard to be a part timer with a child!!! i am struggling but really want to keep my job!!!

Hi holidayneeded, sorry to hear about your situation.

I take it they are saying you are not entitled to company sick pay because they only pay company sick pay for a maximum of 3 weeks?

That doesn't stop you being due to Statutory Sick Pay though (if you are entitled to it, you need to earn at least somewhere around £78 per week, although I cant remember the exact figure). Did you have a doctor's note for the two weeks that you had off? If so, I dont understand why they haven't given you SSP. If you didn't - you could ask your GP for one retrospectively. Like someone said, you wouldn't get SSP for the first 3 days of your absence, but you would get it for the remaining days.

I am currently off work following a miscarriage. The bereavement midwife told me to get a sick certificate and to make it pregnancy/miscarriage related. Apparently they shouldn't add this to any other acrued sickness, it supposed to be treated differently. That is all I know though as I have not been into work yet and haven't had my Jan pay slip.

oh that's a good point cece (clearly I'm not awake enough yet). Pregnancy related absence cant be added to normal absence sickness so it would follow that you might be entitled to get paid for it. Does your company pay company sick pay normally for absences up to 3 weeks in a year holidayneeded?

I'm not sure I agree. As far as I understand it, the employer is not under any obligation to increase any occupational sick pay scheme because some sickness absence was pregnancy-related. That's my understanding anyway, see section about sick pay here. She can't be disciplined or suffer a detriment but I don't think there is an obligation to pay her if another employee off for the same length of time would not have been paid.

More than happy to be corrected if I am wrong of course!

I'm with flowery on this one I'm afraid. There is no obligation I am aware of to pay people who are ill as a result of pregnancy. Cece is totally right that it shouldn't be added to other sickness for other purposes - like whether they would start capability/disciplinaries proceedings. You cannot be penalised. However, there is no right I am aware of to be treated specifically more favourably.

I am sorry holidayneeded. It's really tough. Shocking to hear that your work are so unsympathetic. Mine has a really tight sick pay policy to stop all those people who take four weeks a year in odd days of colds and headaches, but they are always really good about stuff like this.

Thank you all ! Flowerybeanbag, that website is very useful thanks! So if i can understand, i should not be paid for my day off sick (2 in one year excluding miscarriage)...that is a bit tough....
it is so hard to be a woman!!
while i'm there, can i ask if any of you get paid when you take parental leave? I have to take mine as holiday(which is why i ran out of holidays otherwise i would ot get paid...i know i am entitled to 2 weeks parntal leave but unpaid on my contract...). My company seems to be very uneasy for mothers...(guess because most staff are women and that would cost them too much!!).

It's a bit mean but that's right there's no legal requirement for your company to pay you more than the usual sick pay because part of your sick pay entitlement was used up by a pregnancy-related illness. Very mean of them not to do so anyway though.

And parental leave doesn't have to be paid either, no. See here for information about how much you are entitled to in total and each year, plus rules about taking it. Most companies don't pay it in my experience, but your company can't make you take it as holiday - either it's holiday or it's parental leave, but if you take it as parental leave it's unpaid. And you can take 4 weeks in any year in respect of any child, not 2 weeks.

Sorry to hear about your loss.

I have had 2 m/c's in the last 5 months. I initially took sick leave, but when I checked out our HR policy on the matter it turned out that miscarriages could be granted compassionate leave at the managers's discretion. I questioned it and was granted it retrospectively.

See what your HR policy is on miscarriage specifically.

HTH!

you're right flowerybeanbag [http://employment.practicallaw.com/7-201-4761]

sorry holidayneeded - did you check whether you were entitled to any Statutory Sick Pay for those two weeks?

sympathy for you.

im a little confused you say that your miscarriage was in feb but that your leave years runs until april. surely the Feb time off should be on last years leave then and you should start this year fresh?

Katz I expect holidayneeded's annual leave year runs from April to March. In terms of her sick pay entitlement it may be in a calendar year or more likely calculated on a rolling basis, i.e., in any 12 month period only 3 weeks sick leave will be paid.

that seems really unfair! i was hoping i'd found a loop hole for her to be able to claim her current sick leave as just that, sick leave leaving her with some holiday to take.

It's really unfair generally isn't it? I would always hope something like a miscarriage would be allowed as compassionate leave or similar, but it seems holidayneeded's employer is a bit stingy,

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Orinoco that's absolutely horrendous, especially as the facility was there to show discretion. Don't blame you for leaving!

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oh! Seems that i am not the only one on this situation!!! Good news (hope it will happen though)...i have two HR people in my department and when phoned up the "head" HR (left 3 messages), SHE WAS COMPLETELY USELESS AND EMAILED PAyROLL to explain to me why i shouldn't be paid...without even having a word with me...but i had the good idea to phone up the other HR who remembered my situation and gave me credit for it so i will (hopefully) be refunded...it just shows that it is up to who you talk to...and the guidelines are not always followed... flowerybeanbag, you know so much about the rules, that's great!!! thanks to you all to comfort me and for your advice!

That's fantastic news holidayneeded!