current new accusations against PM

[Unsure33]

just a genuine question

if you had in your eyes fought tooth and nail to get your dream job - when the odds were allegedly stacked against you . And then you were subject to discrimination that could be used for constructive dismissal or other similar appeals - would you not take the appropriate action ( as would clearly be in your contract ) and make an official complaint through the correct channels . Then if that did not work take your employer to a tribunal ? Would you wait two years and then without any kind of formal investigation bring it up again ? I totally understand you may feel your employers course of re-dress open to you may not be fit for purpose - but surely you would take the correct route offered to you and proceed . If only to stop it happening to others ? What am I missing ?

I don't really agree. If I had told the most senior person about my complaint and they'd fobbed me off I'd be reluctant to then continue with it, and it's not like other work where you can just move to another company if you are unhappy with your employer or are blacklisted for raising a grievance.

It was a government matter not a conservative party matter, so complaining to CCHQ would not have been the right course of action.

And nobody knows how they would react in a hypothetical situation. It's arrogance and hubris to declare that you know how you would react if xyz happened to you - you're a different person and you're not in that situation. You don't know what you're talking about.

People rarely react how they imagined they would when they find themselves in a difficult situation like that.

You have no clue and you sound nasty.

Then if that did not work take your employer to a tribunal ?

I believe the government are exempt.

It's pretty obvious that making a formal complaint would have damaged her career permanently, being a member of a party that doesn't really believe in discrimination. I'm sure she made a calculation at the time that keeping her head down was the better of two bad options, and the current situation has made her recalculate. As a member of a party that is comfortable providing a home for people who are hostile to her, she will have had to make a lot of difficult choices in her career.

Because its not that easy.

What do you think are the chances of a fair hearing with Boris Johnson as the final arbiter?
I used to be a trade union rep, and supported many staff through difficulties in the workplace. Its very stressful and the outcomes and benefits are uncertain. Its a huge thing to challenge and I don't think any one should feel pressured to take on something for the benefit of a wider group.

MPs are not employees, they are elected and Ministerial jobs are politicial appointments. She was removed from a ministerial role, which can happen to anyone at any time, reshuffles are regular. She is still a Member of Parliament.
I can't see that regulations around constructive dismissal apply.

@HalfShrunkMoreToGo

I don't really agree. If I had told the most senior person about my complaint and they'd fobbed me off I'd be reluctant to then continue with it, and it's not like other work where you can just move to another company if you are unhappy with your employer or are blacklisted for raising a grievance.

he did not fob her off - he told her to make an official complaint ?

@draramallama

It was a government matter not a conservative party matter, so complaining to CCHQ would not have been the right course of action.

And nobody knows how they would react in a hypothetical situation. It's arrogance and hubris to declare that you know how you would react if xyz happened to you - you're a different person and you're not in that situation. You don't know what you're talking about.

People rarely react how they imagined they would when they find themselves in a difficult situation like that.

You have no clue and you sound nasty.

thanks for that constructive post. You don't sound like a barrel of laughs yourself.

I was asking a question not making assumptions .

to be an MP you have to be pretty tough skinned in any situation. And she is willing to put her head above the parapet now ?

so why not then?

@raspberrymuffin

It's pretty obvious that making a formal complaint would have damaged her career permanently, being a member of a party that doesn't really believe in discrimination. I'm sure she made a calculation at the time that keeping her head down was the better of two bad options, and the current situation has made her recalculate. As a member of a party that is comfortable providing a home for people who are hostile to her, she will have had to make a lot of difficult choices in her career.

that is a more sensible reply

did she also not also say she was not even sure the comments had come from the conservative party ? it was a comment about comments not direct to her ?

@Ted27

Because its not that easy.

What do you think are the chances of a fair hearing with Boris Johnson as the final arbiter?
I used to be a trade union rep, and supported many staff through difficulties in the workplace. Its very stressful and the outcomes and benefits are uncertain. Its a huge thing to challenge and I don't think any one should feel pressured to take on something for the benefit of a wider group.

MPs are not employees, they are elected and Ministerial jobs are politicial appointments. She was removed from a ministerial role, which can happen to anyone at any time, reshuffles are regular. She is still a Member of Parliament.
I can't see that regulations around constructive dismissal apply.

Then surely - especially after what happened in the labour party previously this needs a big shake up ?

Because IF what was relayed to her was true then it was discrimination . And the person who relayed it should have been made to come forward and state who said it?

There is a process in place and if there is no confidence in it then all MPS who can be discriminated against for many many reasons should get together and change the system. Perhaps enquiries should be cross party initially?

With respect OP, she’s the only one who can say why she did or didn’t do something.
Her reason/s may not be reasonable to some people but that’s neither here nor there.
Asking the question “why now?” Has a little bit of a whiff of “it can’t be true because most people would have done x”, which is logic used against sexual assault and rape and childhood abuse victims… most often by people who say that a victim is looking for attention or compensation.

I know because that logic was used on me by the hospital that employs the doctor who trapped me between his legs and assaulted me. Do you know why I didn’t report it “straight away” - it took me 3-4 months- in part FEAR.
Not knowing who to report it to.
Fear of retaliation.
Fear of being deemed a trouble maker by the NHS.
Fear of not being believed.
Fear of having to be interviewed by disbelieving know it alls.
All of the above happened.
And oh yeah - the shame and the knowledge you’ll be told you are exaggerating/lying/there’s no proof so it didn’t happen.
Not wanting to go through the ludicrous questions that authorities think is appropriate in the name of assuming the innocence of the (alleged) perpetrator.
For the perpetrator/bully/racist they just have to say “I deny it happened “.
The victim/person making the complaint has to be interviewed, often multiple times (I’ve been interviewed by the police, the GMC, the hospital, the PHSO).
And do you know what- only the GMC asked why I didn’t report straight away. The hospital treated me like I was deliberately making malicious lies about the doctor.
Yes, it’s a different scenario but that’s an insight into what may have gone through her mind.

@ProfessorSlocombe

Then if that did not work take your employer to a tribunal ?

I believe the government are exempt.

I can appreciate there are some different rules for MPS

but surely ( as I said before ) because of the problems well publicised within the labour party - human rights come into it even if not a simple HR department. These things should not be allowed to be swept under the carpet. MPS themselves are the people who can change this surely?

people have a right to attend their place of work without discrimination?

so if there is a procedure and you really feel aggrieved then you should follow it - and then if not fight for change .
in fact as an MP that is what you are fighting for every day .

@Blue4YOU

With respect OP, she’s the only one who can say why she did or didn’t do something. Her reason/s may not be reasonable to some people but that’s neither here nor there. Asking the question “why now?” Has a little bit of a whiff of “it can’t be true because most people would have done x”, which is logic used against sexual assault and rape and childhood abuse victims… most often by people who say that a victim is looking for attention or compensation.

I know because that logic was used on me by the hospital that employs the doctor who trapped me between his legs and assaulted me. Do you know why I didn’t report it “straight away” - it took me 3-4 months- in part FEAR.
Not knowing who to report it to.
Fear of retaliation.
Fear of being deemed a trouble maker by the NHS.
Fear of not being believed.
Fear of having to be interviewed by disbelieving know it alls.
All of the above happened.
And oh yeah - the shame and the knowledge you’ll be told you are exaggerating/lying/there’s no proof so it didn’t happen.
Not wanting to go through the ludicrous questions that authorities think is appropriate in the name of assuming the innocence of the (alleged) perpetrator.
For the perpetrator/bully/racist they just have to say “I deny it happened “.
The victim/person making the complaint has to be interviewed, often multiple times (I’ve been interviewed by the police, the GMC, the hospital, the PHSO).
And do you know what- only the GMC asked why I didn’t report straight away. The hospital treated me like I was deliberately making malicious lies about the doctor.
Yes, it’s a different scenario but that’s an insight into what may have gone through her mind.

I am very sorry for your situation .

And yes arguing against a huge institution must be incredibly daunting ( in fact I am following up a case regarding the NHS myself)

And yes you could be correct . But she is in fact part of the institution herself in this case and is quite willing to speak up now . Perhaps she has more backing from her colleagues at this particular time .

Perhaps enquiries should be cross party initially?

Why? This is about the Government. The Labour Party isn't in power.

But she is in fact part of the institution herself in this case and is quite willing to speak up now

How can you possibly know that? Who knows what kinds of duress women in these political situations are under?

And people wonder why there aren't more women in politics ...

@ProfessorSlocombe

Then if that did not work take your employer to a tribunal ?

I believe the government are exempt.

Received wisdom holds that Members of Parliament can't bring an Employment Tribunal claim if they are discriminated against while working as MPs. But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal. The jurisdiction of the Employment Tribunal is important. Claims for discrimination in the County Court are possible for any member of a political party, which includes nearly all MPs. But the County Court is a costs-bearing jurisdiction and awards for injury to feelings, which rarely exceed £25,000, are often less than the costs required to bring a claim. Discrimination claims are always inherently uncertain, so the litigation risk of suing in a costs-bearing jurisdiction like the County Court is often enough to dissuade most would-be claimants. The Employment Tribunal is costs-neutral (each party bears its own costs, regardless of who wins), more flexible and usually quicker to reach trial, and more

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

Perhaps enquiries should be cross party initially?

Why? This is about the Government. The Labour Party isn't in power.

because she herself was saying an investigation by the conservative party alone would not be unbiased ?

so are you saying other parties can not decide what is racist and what is not ? Or what has been said or carry out investigations?

All I am saying is if the current system is not suitable then MPS should ask for change .

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

But she is in fact part of the institution herself in this case and is quite willing to speak up now

How can you possibly know that? Who knows what kinds of duress women in these political situations are under?

And people wonder why there aren't more women in politics ...

but that is exactly what I am saying - there are all sorts of discrimination and obviously there are men in parliament as well that could be discriminated against because of race or other reasons . MPS are there to make change and if she was not willing (or able ) to take the route that was suggested then perhaps all MPS should change the proceedure .

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

But she is in fact part of the institution herself in this case and is quite willing to speak up now

How can you possibly know that? Who knows what kinds of duress women in these political situations are under?

And people wonder why there aren't more women in politics ...

223 women in the House of Commons, the highest ever. This is a new all-time high at 34%

I agree not enough though .

Islamophobia has been a problem in the Conservative Party for a long time. Baroness Warsi has spoken about the issue many times. But it is seemingly seen as acceptable, you only have to look at the Prime Minister's own comments on Muslim women to know that.

What would be the purpose of a complaint, other than for your experience to be totally invalidated?

But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal.

MPs are not employees. On what basis do you suggest they can make a claim at tribunal?

Received wisdom holds that Members of Parliament can't bring an Employment Tribunal claim if they are discriminated against while working as MPs. But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal.

That isn't received wisdom. It is the law. MPs are not employees. They are self-employed.

@CorrBlimeyGG

But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal.

MPs are not employees. On what basis do you suggest they can make a claim at tribunal?

See my post above

@CorrBlimeyGG

But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal.

MPs are not employees. On what basis do you suggest they can make a claim at tribunal?

Received wisdom holds that Members of Parliament can't bring an Employment Tribunal claim if they are discriminated against while working as MPs. But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal. The jurisdiction of the Employment Tribunal is important. Claims for discrimination in the County Court are possible for any member of a political party, which includes nearly all MPs. But the County Court is a costs-bearing jurisdiction and awards for injury to feelings, which rarely

@prh47bridge

Received wisdom holds that Members of Parliament can't bring an Employment Tribunal claim if they are discriminated against while working as MPs. But this is wrong. MPs can sue for discrimination and can sue in the Employment Tribunal.

That isn't received wisdom. It is the law. MPs are not employees. They are self-employed.

This is copied from a legal advice page . Not my own words

@CorrBlimeyGG

Islamophobia has been a problem in the Conservative Party for a long time. Baroness Warsi has spoken about the issue many times. But it is seemingly seen as acceptable, you only have to look at the Prime Minister's own comments on Muslim women to know that.

What would be the purpose of a complaint, other than for your experience to be totally invalidated?

I never said it was not a problem ? As were the well known anti Semitic problems in Labour .

I just said she had an opportunity to try and fight her case and take it down the official route . And decided not to . Now perhaps she has more support but you have to be a tough nut to be an mp in the first place so I am surprised she has left it until now.

By the way if you read the full article tha Boris wrote and not just extracts , he was actually defending women’s right to wear what ever they like and not be ruled by men. Albeit in a clumsy way .

And I thought his background was part Muslim any way ? He is not without an ethnic background himself ? Through his great grandfather ?