referencess

[santaslittlelaurliemonkey]

is it true that a reference can't say bad things about you as such?
and for all the hr people out there, how much does a reference matter, especially as for the job i have been offered, i have gone through several more stages than normal, including a written exam?

Hi, see this link - it may help www.employment-solicitors.co.uk/references.htm

ah thank you ,thats really helpful

References don't matter at all when they are good but matter an awful lot when they are bad. I would pause before hiring someone with a bad reference, no matter how well they had performed at interview. Depending on what the refernce said I might call up the person beign referenced to find out more about the situation but I might just turn the person down if I had another equally good candidate.

And it is not true that a referee cannot say bad things about you; in fact they owe a duty of care to the person they provide a reference to: if they give a good reference when they know the person to be dishonest, unreliable or whatever, then they can be sued by the employer who relies on that reference. Therefore they have a duty of care to BOTH parties and can be sued by either side. So they have to be scrupulously honest, which can of course be bad, as far as the person swithcing jobs is concerned...

Because of this many firms don't give any details other than start date, end date, title of job, salary, and sometimes the number of days off sick (if they don't like you). In my old firm if they really really liked you they would say all of the above and then add 'she has been a valued member of staff and we wish her well' And that was it!

There are a few jobs where you must by law give a full reference and not just the bare bones, and any kind of childcare references have to be full references. Again so long as they are written honestly and without malice then they can be as bad or good as the person writing it deems to be fair.

I have to say because of the dichotomy outlined by Squiffy most big employers won't give any info but the bare bones , they won't provide a view on value of an employee and nor will they provide telephone references.

Because of the a lot of employers seek other reference and security checks to ensure that what an employee says matches with the info you have provided on your cv. If they are doing this you are told and provide consent for them to do so.

On another note, why are you concerned about your reference?

It's not true that a reference can't say anything bad. It must be accurate and should be able to be substantiated. In other words someone can't say you are rubbish at something if it hasn't been raised as an issue before and you are aware. But if there have been documented performance/behaviour issues an employer could raise them.

That said, most employers would give a neutral reference rather than a bad one to be on the safe side. So in practice a 'bad' reference would be very unusual.

In terms of how important they are, it depends partly on the job and the organisation concerned. If I am recruiting, the recruitment process itself is much more important. But references can and sometimes do flag up issues or concerns that don't come out in a recruitment process. This could either be directly and openly, or sometimes as a recruiter you pick up on things in a reference, even neutral ones which lead you to dig a bit further. I have withdrawn one or two offers of employment following digging about after an iffy reference.

I have applied for a job in which they will be taking up references as part of the short listing process. This means that they will contact your current employer before they even decide if they want to interview you. Seems really odd to me, has anyone come accross this before?

That sounds very unusual dylansaunty, wanting to take up references before they've even met you, bizarre way of shortlisting.
Unless you are fine with this, I would say you are happy for them to contact your other reference but as your current employer is not aware you are looking for a job, they can only contact them once an offer of employment has been made. That's fairly usual and I would be surprised if you are the only candidate who says this. Most offers of employment are subject to satisfactory references anyway so it's not as if they be stuck with you if your current employer says you're rubbish or whatever.

I think a lot of references say a lot through what they don't say, if you know what I mean. If people are looking for specific positive indicators and don't find them then that will be very telling.

Someone told me once that there used to be an accepted "code" in their business that if they referred to someone's physical appearance in a reference it meant "don't employ this person"!

Reading these posts, I have a question- since being sacked (Im a live-in nanny, employer is changing to housekeeper, sucks for me) employer has offered to speak to anyone who wants a ref, thought was as no time for written plus may be awkward as job was for 6 weeks after sacking. Have since found out from potential emp that current has said I have a problem keeping the kids rooms tidy- which I do as they are toddlers and destroy rooms in a second while Im with newborn- but she has never brought this up with me in any way. Is she allowed to do this? I am asking for written ref so I can avoid this but even so all live-in jobs phone refs too so it cant be avoided. Advice?

If it's true, she is perfectly entitled to say it, so long as it is relavent to your ability to do your job.

With regards to the tidyness thing, this is not something I would ever expect to bring up with a nanny because it is such a standard expectation that the children's rooms and toys are tidied away beautifully at the end of each day (even though we all know how soul-destroying it is when you tidy & everything is a pit again in seconds). If I had a nanny who didn't do this, I can imagine getting irritated beyond all rationality by this (but maybe it's just me)

Saying that, if that is the worst she is saying about you, then I don't think you should worry too much.

With regards to verbal versus written reference, it is pretty common for nanny references to be by telephone, and the same rules apply. I wouldn't try pushing for a written ref only in your position or complaining about this, though. The very best thing you can do for yourself at the moment is to go out of your way being an absolute angel whilst serving out your notice (no matter how annoyed you feel inside). The nicer you are the guiltier she will start to feel, and the better the reference you will get.

If she is saying that and has never said it to you or recorded it in anyway if you have any kind of regular discussions about your performance or anything then she is on shaky ground saying it. References should always be based on facts which can be verified. So a performance issue which has never been recorded or raised with the employee is not something she should really raise as an issue - case law is a bit complicated around references but she has a duty of care both to the new employer and to you, and there are various legal ramifications that could arise.

Having said that, any consequences for her are extremely unlikely, particularly in these circumstances. What was the reaction of the potential employer who received this reference? Were you able to discuss it with them and mention that you hadn't had it brought to your attention, toddlers made it difficult etc?

I agree with Squiffy about what your course of action should be though. As I say, technically, to protect herself as much as anything, she shouldn't be colouring a reference with problems that seemingly weren't an issue previously, but in reality there's not a huge amount that you could realistically do, your best bet is to try and mend the situation as best you can with this potential employer if you can, and be an angel for the rest of your employment. I think pushing for a written reference only in your personal circumstances is only going to make a potential employer suspicious. I think if I were in their shoes I'd rather employ a nanny who was slightly untidy or something rather than one who would not allow me to talk to her previous employer...

I am starting a new job in January but only if my references come back saying I can the job.

I have had interviews, done a IT test and have my disclosure but I could still lose the job if I don't get the references.

I know my recent one will be okay, but my other one was someone I worked freelance for [from mumsnet] and she hasn't answered any emails I have sent her.

Hope your ones come good for you, best of luck!!