Flexible working refused & have I been demoted?

[RCS]

I work for a high street retailer as a buyer. I have been on maternity leave since 19th Jan 2007. On 5th July I met with my manager & told him I want to return 3 days a week. He verbally agreed, saying that 'however many days a week I wanted to work, there would be a job there for me'.

On 18th Sept I was invited back to head office, and asked if I'd given any thought to returning to work. I re-iterated that I wanted to work 3 days a week, and was told they needed to think about how that could be managed within the business. The MD told me his daughter was in a similiar position so he was sympathetic to my case & would consider how he could incorporate my needs, although I may need to compromise, maybe 4 days a week. He then told me to go away, enjoy my maternity leave & that they'd write to me in December telling me when I was due back at work. I queried this as I knew I was requesting changes to my contract. He telephoned me later that afternoon to say he was in fact going to issue a flexible working pack to me.

I returned the forms, then went in to see them for a meeting to discuss my application. At the meeting, they told me the business was underperforming. They said that a colleague of mine was now senior buyer over the ladies department & that I would have to report into her. They then told me to discuss my application with them, which I did in detail. These are some of the questions they then asked me:
Q: If we need you to work until 7pm every night, how would you cope with that?
(we are contracted until 5.30pm).
A: I fully understood the expectations of my role, and would ensure my responsibilities were met. If it required me to work late, that would be ok by exception, but aspects of my role could be completed at home in the evenings once I had put my son to bed.
Q: If my son was sick, how would I handle his care?
A: I am fortunate to have 2 sets of grandparents available to care for my son if this happens.
Q: What if my son is sick, 1 set of grandparents are on holiday & the other set of grandparents are both sick?
A: That is a very extreme scenario.
Q: How will I handle foreign travel?
A: I have been doing my job for 14 years, and am fully aware of what it entails. I accept foreign travel as part of the job, although I would be hesitant to do 23 trips a year, as was the case before I had my son.
Q: That is ok as there will be maximum 6 trips. But when its time to go, you won't want to leave your son. How should we cope with that?
A: The emotional aspect to my work-life balance is really for me to handle. As a professional person I shan't let it interfere with my performance.
Q: Today I double booked my diary & decided to cancel my buyers meeting as I preferred the alternative. How would we manage that if you weren't in on the rescheduled day.
A: As long as I am made aware of my office commitments I can be fully flexible with which days I work to ensure I am at key events. My childcare arrangements are half nursery & half grandparents so my days aren't fixed.
Q: So we can tell you at 7pm at night that we need you in the next day.
A: By exception only, as I need to be courteous to the people providing my childcare. I would need you to be fair with me.

With the exception of the last 2 questions, I feel that none of the others were pertinent to my flexible working application??

They then said they weren't saying there wasn't a job for me, but that they had given no thought to how I could be incorporated in the business. Maybe they could ask me to look after the website or something. They would write to me & let me know what was on offer in terms of job role, and whether they could meet my hours or offer me a compromise at maybe 25 - 35 hours per wk (I requested 22).

Have now had a letter refusing my application as 'we believe it would be difficult for you to contribute effectively given the demands of the job, if you were to work less than full time hours'
The letter does not detail what my role would be upon my return, other than to say: 'The position of full time buyer remains the only option available'

Before going on ML, I was their highest paid buyer, with 3 times more buying responsibility than the lady they are now calling their senior buyer. She had 1 administrator under her, whereas I had a juinor buyer, assistant buyer & 2 administrators, as well as additional design responsibility for another section of the business. Surely they must maintain this status, particularly if they expect me to return full time?

I am asking for help with how to word my letter to the company, and for any other pertinent advice you can offer a worried new Mum. I have already started my son into nursery ready for when I return to work, and have to go back to work whether it be full or part-time in January for financial reasons.
For my appeal form, I shall go into more detail this time breaking down all the aspects of my job & explaining how I am capable of fulfilling them in order for the company to accommodate my return part time.
However, I think I also want to file some sort of grievance complaint about some of the things that have been said in past meetings, & also my concern for my proposed role within the business, as the re-structure they speak of in the letter seems to just be a switch of responsibility between myself & the new 'senior buyer'? If you are still reading this, THANK YOU & PLEASE HELP!!!

What a nightmare.

Am not in any postion to offer any realistic help but absolutely agree that the questions asked have little or no bearing on your application for flexible working. Are there no other working mums at your workplace? Would you have been asked these questions if you were returning to your old job full time? I very much doubt it.

Can only wish you the very best of luck in sorting this out because returning to work is stressful enough without these added complications.

RCS, this sounds very much like a situation a friend of mine was in. She was a senior IT manager, went on ML, and when she went back to work the 'structure' of the company had changed and she was no longer in charge of her team. She was, in fact, in charge of nothing. It was outrageous, and she thought there was nothing she could do, and she desperately needed the money. After a long story, she left that company.

You need to find some serious legal advice. What you describe sounds very unpleasant. They are being obtrusive, and if this situation is not sorted out properly before you go back to work it will only go downhill, and you'll end up very upset and frustrated. They are also being very stupid at throwing away your goodwill and experience. They will have problems replacing you, this is a very very stupid thing to do.

There is also flowerybeanbag (if this is still her nickname), who is a lovely HR person around here. Shout for her help, I am sure she will give you some good advice.

I'm not in HR and I am sure you will get some great advice, but having a quick flick through your questions, most of them seem to be illegal.

It is none of their business how you organise your childcare and unless your contract states that extra hours will be required, they can't expect you to work more than what you are paid for.

Also be very very careful about saying you will come in on days that you are not expected to. If someone can't be bothered to arrange a work meeting several days in advance and take into account your working pattern, then they are just taking liberties.

If you go back F/T within 12 months I am sure they have to give you either your position or a similar one. If you wish to apply for flexible working and they decline this for business reasons then I believe they are within their rights to offer you a different job at reduced hours but it should be done officially and this all seems very badly handled.

Hi RCS will have a proper look and come back to you once DS is in bed this evening.

(And thanks starfish for lovely compliment! )

working families web site

I'm no expert, but when I had some difficulties with my employer, these people were incredibly helpful. They have a free legal helpline.

Dear All,
Thank you very much for your lovely kind words of encouragement. perpetualworrier thanks for the number, I shall definitely give them a call. I have googled flexible working appeal & have about 300 pages of information that I'm ploughing through in order to try & strengthen my case.
I don't think they were expecting me to return at all, and as they never replaced me during maternity leave, I think they think they can now go on without having to take my salary back on (except they're perfoming really badly now, and they weren't when I was there! ). I think they are hoping that by refusing my part flex work application I'll just resign & they won't have to pay me off. But who knows; its hard to remain positive & objective about all of this when you have so many hormones racing & haven't slept for 10 months!
flowerysantasack - thank you for your message. I look forward to hearing from you later. I've read some of your past posts & you seem a very kind, considerate & clever lady!!

Please help. I am fretting so badly over the situation I seem to be in regarding my career prospects!

When you don't know what to do, do nothing. Do nothing for now, just try to unwind yourself.
Wait for flowery, she will get back to you soon. You also have the working families phone number, talk to them tomorrow.
Have a glass of something (if you are breastfeeding, have your glass immediately after feeding the baby - that will wear off by the time the next feed is due ) and give yourself some time.
Breathe. Slowly, so you do not hyperventilate
And if you want to change career, wait until after you go back to work. You can always change things, but you must remember why you were there in the first place. It seems to me you were good at what you did, and this generally happens when you like what you do.

is this House of Fraser? I used to work there years ago and the set up sounds familiar?

hi, i totally agree with rookiemater, those questions are illegal. they aren't allowed to ask you anything about your child or how you will provide childcare. i returned back to my job last janurary and they did accept my return to 3 days (although i was ft before i left) but i had to work certain days which are most suitable to those.
i have recently changed my days again so i now do every morning, dp found some rules and regs about flexible hours for parents with children under the age of 6 (i think it was 6)they have to seriously think about it and give you a damn good reason why they cant accomodate you.

RCS flattery will get you everywhere . This is going to be very long, sorry.

Ok, I see there being 2 issues here - your flexible working appeal and the potential grievance with what's happened with your position. They are distinct issues but one will impact on the other.

Normally if a flexible working request has not been handled well, I would advise seeing it through to appeal then putting in a grievance afterwards, as the outcome of the appeal will obviously be pertinent to the contents of the grievance.

With your flexible working request, you are right some of the questions you mention are not appropriate or relevant - specifically those relating to what childcare arrangements you have in place and how you will cope with leaving your son.

I am confused about one thing. When you put in your flexible working request for 3 days a week, was it a request regarding reducing the hours of your existing job? I would just say that requesting a reduction of hours in regards to a specific job would be easier and harder to refuse than a general request that someone find you a job that is 3 days a week. It's just not quite clear from your post how your original request was framed.

Regardless of that, the reason they have given you for refusal is not sufficient - I'm sure you have seen in your research that there are a number of acceptable business reasons which can be given, one or more of these must be given with an explanation of why that reason applies in your circumstances.

If you haven't see it look here at the details of the exact process the employer must follow. Go through it with a fine toothcomb and pick out anything they have done which is not according to the legal procedure. Emphasising procedural failures is as important (if not more important) than the details of your request - procedural failures are not at all subjective, so they cannot be argued against in the same way.

I'm sure you have lots of information about the benefits of flexible working to put in your appeal as well. Without seeing your original request it's difficult to comment more, but as a general rule when putting in a flexible working request I would always advise providing solutions. If your existing job is full time, propose how exactly it would work with you reducing your hours. How would the full time job be covered? What tasks do you propose don't need to be done/can be done differently or more efficiently? Are you proposing a job share or recruiting another part time post?

You see what I mean. You are not required by law to do that much work and provide that much 'help' to your employer but I would always advise it. You may have done this already of course.

I would put an appeal in, drawing attention to their procedural shortcomings (including irrelevant and potentially discriminatory questions asked at your meeting), and emphasising how your request could and should in fact be met, and what benefits this would bring to the business. Make it clear as crystal, include a timeline of what happened when (including the meeting when your request was agreed verbally) so that an idiot could clearly see everything that has happened.

With regard to the other issues, without more information it's again difficult to comment. As I am sure you know, coming back after AML you should return to your previous job unless it is not reasonably practicable for you to do so. If it is for whatever reason not practicable for you to return to your exact same job, you must be offered a suitable job on no less terms and conditions. At the moment it doesn't sound like you know enough about your job on returning to work to make a decision whether these requirements have been met? You do think it sounds as though some of your old responsibilities have been taken away and given to someone else though.
The situation should be that you are coming back to your full time job as it was, with the same level of responsibility. In the meantime you are requesting a reduction in hours. Part of any agreement reached in regards to reducing your hours could include a transfer of some of the additional responsibilities to this other person or elsewhere, but no agreement has been reached yet, so you are right to be concerned that you have been told you will report to her.

Put in your appeal, quickly. Email it to me on flowery dot beanbag at ntlworld dot com if you would like me to read through it. There is a strict timescale for appeals as I am sure you are aware. Once you have the appeal it, it will be heard and you will be notified of the outcome, which should involve more details of the position you will be coming back to. Assuming you are not happy then (and I anticipate you won't be), put in a grievance with everything. You have a lot of ammunition. Hopefully with a decent appeal document including all their discriminatory questions and mishandling of the request, they might be scared into sorting this out.

Hello flowerysantasack. You must be amazing at your job and I'm sure your employers would never undervalue your contributions! Thank you for such a comprehensive & useful summary. I was employed full time, and have worked for the company for almost 6 years. I initially proposed working a 3 day week, which could be flexible in line with external & internal demands. In our 18th Sept meeting I was told that I would have to work on a Monday & Tuesday, and then either a Wednesday or Thursday which they would leave to me to decide. I was told Friday's were a waste of time so they wouldn't want me on that day. When I returned for the formal application review in November, I was asked why I had asked to work Mon-Weds, as they were thinking of Weds-Fri. I explained I put that down following their request in the last meeting, and they blushed but said nothing. Do you think its worth putting my concerns into the appeal regarding my proposed status due to the ambiguity of my job role in any meetings/correspondence with the company and perhaps using this as a leverage tool to get my part time, or should I wait in case I have to file a greivance complaint? Sorry if I have misunderstood your message & you've already answered that!

thank you starfish for your supportive words. I am somehow managing to stay calm; just so daunted by it all. I am very good at my job (so people have told me, including my employers in the past!), & I love it with a passion. I stopped breastfeeding recently when DS reached 8 months, and maybe it is the extra hormoines making me paranoid, but I cannot understand why they can inadvertently be suggesting that my skills & passion have been numbed by 'the hormonal impact of childbirth' - their words!!

p.s. as I want to return to work and would like to pursue this appeal without prejudice, I shan't be naming & shaming my employers, but its not HoF!

Morning RCS hope you are feeling a bit calmer about things today.

What you could do in your appeal is mention that you have concerns about your status due to comments made about reporting into a previous colleague, There has not so far been clarity about this and you would welcome confirmation that your status, seniority and responsibilities will remain at the level they were prior to your maternity leave for the avoidance of confusion.

At the moment you don't have actual hard evidence or confirmation that your status will be reduced but saying that will flag that you are concerned and want more exact information about how you fit into the new structure.

RCS - obviously you can't say who the company are, but if it were to ever end up in court, then they would get a lot of very unwelcome publicity. They really shouldn't underestimate how strongly many women feel about this topic. If I knew who they were, I would almost certainly never buy from them again! This type of behaviour really annoys me - and I would take my money elsewhere..

Good Luck!

'the hormonal impact of childbirth'????
'the hormonal impact of childbirth'????
I am very very angry about this comment. Nobody has brain death because of childbirth. Make sure they are aware (nicely, I am sure you can phase it better) that this type of comment is offensive, unfair and only shows their complete ignorance about the 'impact of childbirth'.
I am fuming.
I hope the person who said this utter idiocy is not your junior colleague. If it is, you have a very good case for not having her as your superior, ever.

Hello everyone.
I have had such an amazing day with my gorgeous son that its made me more determined than ever to fight this as NO-ONE is going to keep me away from him during these precious years! Starfish, I am absolutely incredulous at what they said too. It's 2 middle aged men who spent the whole meeting saying to each other 'we never had this in our day did we?'. The lady they have made senior is late 40's and childless, so I think that might have something to do with their decision making. However, I shan't waste any more time trying to analyse their motives, but instead concentrate on my appeal. Looking over your shoulder only ever makes a person bitter & distracts you from the task in hand!
Flowery, thanks again for your marvellous advice. I also forgot to thank you in my previous post for your kind offer to read through my letter before I send it. I will most probably e-mail you when I've completed it.
Thank you everyone for your support & words of wisdom & encouragement. I knew this would be the place for guidance & solice!

'we never had this in our day did we?'
Erm. Well, just in case they are not aware, women also have the right to vote these days. Maybe they also never had this in their days, given how old they seem to be
Maybe they need to go on a refresher course for their jobs so they can be brought up to current standards. They also need a HR person that has been on a recent refresher course about maternity rights.
The world has moved on while they had their heads buried in their own belly-buttons.
Having said that, when I went on ML my own dad thought I would be at home getting bored, doing next to nothing, and spending no money whatsoever. His head was buried in another place Still is, actually

Hi Starfish, You are funny! These men have no idea how to deal with a thinking woman (nothing against your Mum; I'm sure she just figured out how to play your Dad at an early stage!!). You'll probably have already guessed this, but the company I work for doesn't have a HR department. They bought a book called the law of employment from Waterstones which sits in the MD's office. Hilarious!