Anyone in HR? (rather long)

[new2it]

Advice needed please, I was made redundant from the LEA finishing date 28th November 2007. Through the redeployment register I have been successful at interview and offered the post. On Saturday received the letter confirming the starting salary and it is lower that I thought.
They want to start me on 18.907 (sp22) to 20.736. I rang to check and I would start on 18.907
They have said that I could question this through an e-mail with justification which would then be looked at.
TBH I was looking for 19389.0 as this would be in line with my salary from my old job, i know its only £482.12 per year but I therefore, feel its a drop in salary.
How would you go about justifying this request and would you request it, knowing you desperately, need a job !

hi there

I think I can help, but need to know a couple of things....

Can you help me understand a bit more about your redundancy ? Where you made redundant before taking maternity leave ? Because, really depending on how long you have taken for maternity leave, you should remain in your current role, or have been offered a role that is identical or similar at the same rate of pay...

I also question then, why you interviewed, when really you should have been offered the role in the first place.

There are a couple of things here that dont make sense and it may be that you just need to give me a little more detail so I have a fuller story...

So, detail on your redundancy, what you were offered in way other roles and any redundancy money you took, how long you have been on maternity leave (I am assuming that you have been ?)

And maybe we can work out a way to approach them about your salary !

Hi onilly,
I was not made redundant before maternity leave! Youngest dd is now 6. The job was for a different role in a different department for the county council, through the redeployment register.
I finished school (job) in July and got paid for school holidays so got paid for August. Got 3months pay in lieu of notice (taxed)so that takes me up to 28th November. I received 16 weeks redundancy pay as had worked for cc for 16 continuous years.
I am baffled by the pay scale they want to start me on Level 5/6 which is 22-25FCP thus 18907.0 to 20736 (22.845)
In my last job I earned approx 10.35 pr hour again this means the salary would need to increase by £482.12 to make it equivalent.
I have a degree in Education, that the panel said they wanted someone of this level to write the reports that would feed into court. (Am I being picky?)

ok..... got it. for some reason most of my friends have had problems during their maternity leave... and it sets me off !

Unfortunately, the legal view as I know it is as you have taken redundancy, (assuming there was no other suitable role at the time)and that a sufficient amount of time has passed since you were terminated that you will essentially be starting a "new contract" of employment, whereby they are not obliged to honour firstly your length of service or, your history with regards to pay and benefits...... which you probably know already...

I understand how you can be miffed - perhaps follow whatever procedure is in place there to raise it and perhaps get it reviewed - I actually have never worked in HR for for the council (only in large nasty capitalist MNC's) so I cant advise you on how that would go - but my view is if we had made someone redundant, didnt have a job for them at point of termination but several months later we did have one - I would seriously consider at least looking at the salary and if not able to adjust it at point of hire, get some consideration for the salary later during the pay review season....

Only seems fair to me to at least get them to consider that ?

I dont think you are being picky, just principled - however it sounds like you want / need this job rather than carry on looking until you find something more aligned to your salary expectation... ? So you may have to go for it. Perhaps take the job and raise it internally when you are in place...

I hope I have helped....

new2it I would still ask despite being desperate for a job - they obviously want you for this job and requesting a review of the starting salary isn't going to change that in itself.

I don't know about LEA salary structures, you are starting at the lowest point in the band your job has been allocated, and it may well be that that is automatically the case when you are starting from scratch, but as they have told you that you can request an uplift, it is obviously possible to get one.

I would have a good look at the job description and person spec for the new job. The best way to justify an uplift in your starting salary is to point out what additional experience/expertise you are bringing to the role over and above the requirements of the job. Obviously I don't know how different this new job is to your old one, but I'm presuming that most of your skills and experience at the previous (higher-paid) job is transferable and relevant and therefore a slight uplift is not too outrageous a request.

I'd say something like

-----

Thank you very much for the offer of the post of [job], I am really looking forward to starting work with the team. This role does represent a drop in salary for me based on the starting salary I have been quoted. I would like to request that consideration is given to adjusting this to reflect the skills and experience I am bringing to this role.

[then talk about all the marvellous skills and experience you are offering]

I will be happy to discuss this further or answer any questions you may have with regard to this request, and I am very much looking forward to working with you.

kind regards

new2it

---------

That way you are asking nicely, you are reminding them about all the wonderful things you are bringing to the role, and you are not burning any bridges.

You could phrase it more harshly, calling their bluff slightly and making out you will not be interested in accepting the role unless they match your salary, but I really don't think you are in a position to do that, I'm sure you agree. But just because you are not in that strong a position doesn't mean you can't ask nicely.

you must do it in terms of the skills/knowledge/experience you will bring to the role and that it requires - just saying 'I'm used to earning this much and I don't want to get less' won't be as effective

Are you being redeployed and therefore maintaining your continuity of service? If so you should be able to negotiate up to 3 years salary protection under the national terms and conditions.

Note: you may not be eligible for the redundancy payment if you start your new job less than 4 weeks after you leave the LEA, assuming the new job is with another or same LEA. Perhaps you could clarify?

Actually, new2it, flowery makes very good sense, since they have offered you an email justification then you should start there, and see where it takes you. My worry is that their answer may well be no, be aware of how that might make you feel and perhaps decide now how you will react (ie: you will walk away or still take the job,regardless) - I have seen in the past how pay issues escalate and because of the distance (ie: you are not an employee already in the job) there is usually less energy from the employer to resolve amicably.

Does that make sense ?

Thank you FSS, Onilly,Zaz and laree,
have cut and paste the letter added bits about experience of 18yrs etc now its wait and see! I have worked it out properly from an old pay slip and it would represent a shortfall of £700 per year plus its 30 miles away so including petrol I could be down quite a bit.
The team leader seemed approachable and flexible at interview so we will have to wait and see, Capita however, are crap. The team leader wanted me to start before christmas, but capita they said no because my enhanced disclosure (needed a new one). On Saturday I received a letter of confirmation with salary, plus a note to say that because I haven't had a break of 3months or more my enhanced disclosure is still valid.

new2it - please see my earlier question. If you are being redeployed into another LEA role you WILL be eligible for salary protection.

llareggub, but I think I have a break in service? My last day was the 28th November. This new job starts January. When I left I was paid for three months in lieu of notice and my redundancy payment taking me to November the 28th.
Does that make sense? Perhaps I need to speak to the union...

Ok, not redeployment then. But you must check that there are 4 clear weeks between you leaving the last job and starting the new one or you may have to pay back the redundancy payment if both jobs are LEAs.

To anyone reading this - as far as I know, this rule applies only to local government.

It is always worth speaking to the union who will be able to negotiate on your behalf with full knowledge of what has happened in other circs. I think as a manage in LG I'd be sympathetic to your case but also mindful of any other experienced members of the team. Is the same or similar job? If so you will have a much stronger case.

Managers can be quite flexible about where to place people on the salary scale so long as there are compelling reasons.

new2it was your last day of employment 28th November, is that what all your paperwork says? I don't think it will make any difference to your problem, I don't know about LEA terms and conditions but I wouldn't imagine you could maintain continuity of service with a break like that, which is why you are getting redundancy money. (If anyone knows better I am happy to be corrected of course!)

It's just I would expect your last day of employment to be (say) August 28th, then you to receive 3 months' salary in lieu of notice plus redundancy money at that point. Or I would expect you to be given 3 months' notice of the end of your employment in August, ie told your employment is ending in 3 months' time, but you are on garden leave for the 3 months and are not required to come into work, and your salary is paid into your account monthly as normal.

It's a small point, and I don't think it will make any difference to your current problem as I say, but I was just curious.

flowery, the 4 week rule I refer to below is part of the local government redundancy scheme.

morning llareeggub, yes I got that Typed my last post while you were posting. I was guessing that longer than that would mean no continuity local govt or not, but wasn't sure obviously.

I've just spotted that the new boss wanted new2it to start before Christmas, which means that (assuming her last day of employment actually was 28th Nov not August), she would have had continuity...

Sorry new2it talking about you as if you weren't here... You mentioned about your disclosure still being valid, could you still start when your new boss originally wanted you to? You would then (as I understand it) maintain continuity of service, which is important, as well as obviously having salary protection.

Ooh and as far as I am aware the 4 week rule for a new job with same employer meaning no redundancy pay applies across the board, it's not a local govt thing...

Well, the manager told me last week she asked if I could start before Christmas, and capita said no because of enhanced disclosure, she asked if i could work but not with families and again they said no.
My previous job was as a senior teaching assistant in a local primary school working specifically with children with special needs. The new job is a Family Worker, again working with children but includes more work with parents.
As far as I'm aware the 4 weeks rule applied to me in September.
So to me it looks like capita have messed it up for me!!
As as Flowery sock posted that It would have been a continuity of service with salary protection.

new2it you really shouldn't lose out on those things because of someone else's mistake - you have long service and breaking it could have serious implications in terms of your employment rights, benefits, redundancy payments in future, it may affect your pension, all sorts.

As there seems to have been no reason your continuity couldn't have been preserved I would speak to your union rep and ask him/her to intervene on your behalf to sort this out for you. It will mean losing your redundancy payment but I would say salary protection and preserving 16 years service is more important.

I thought there was a 12 year salary protection clause for anyone with redeployee status?

That may just be our LEA of course.....

mew2it you really must get on to your union rep then. It is important to protect your continuity of service if at all possible, but regardless of that, if, as Christmas says, there might be a 12 month protection anyway, you should know about that and shouldn't have to be worrying about negotiating up a starting salary.

SORRY I meant 12 months

Christmas does it count as redeployment with a break in service? Excuse my ignorance of LEA terms and conditions! I just noticed llareggub said further down that she didn't think new2it would count as being redeployed?

I read it as 12 months, didn't even notice 'years', how funny!

Spoke to union who said you cant be made redundant then redeployed! There has been a break in service so there is no salary protection and I start from scratch with regards to holiday entitlement, sick pay!!
Its apparently negotiable where on the band they start me so in my case between 18907 to 22845 I have to negotiate the £730.0 increase.
If I had been interviewed earlyier, (I knew about the job and applied for it on the 19th November) and started on or before the 28th November I would have had to pay back the redundancy money.
I am ringing her this after so will let you know what she says!!

That's right you can't be redundant then redeployed, but your argument is that you should have been redeployed because it was someone else's error that you were unable to start work in time. If the issue about the enhanced disclosure had not been cocked up you would have started soon enough to get continuity of service and salary protection. Make sure your union rep pushes on this for you, as you say, you lose out on holiday entitlement, sick pay, everything really, and your employment rights for the first year are very very limited, which makes you very vulnerable.