Misogyny and Culture at Work

[Blankspace4]

I fairly recently started a new corporate job and I’m already noticing there is a core clique of existing leaders who all happen to be male, white and similarly aged and many have worked together for years. I am different to them in every respect. However I am in this job on merit and can stand shoulder to shoulder with them.

I’m finding myself ignored or talked over in meetings and excluded from others altogether (I only find out after the event). This isn’t a one off, it’s a pattern. And it’s having a detrimental effect on my team as their issues aren’t being put forward as I’m always been marginalised.

It’s really getting me down. I am usually confident and assertive but how do I change this pattern? I can talk to my line manager but he himself is (somewhat) part of this clique (certainly meets all of the characteristics). at my level it’s generally assumed you sort problems out yourself. But there isn’t one problem - it feels like a whole culture

Anyone got any similar experiences or advice?

OP that sounds really hard.

Can you:

• email people who organised meetings that didn't include you to point out that you should have been there and please ensure you are in the future
• practice some stock phrases ('one second, I'm still speaking and then I'll let you come in' or some such) for interruptions

In essence I think you need to call out the behaviour every time you see it or it will become the norm. If that doesn't work, I'd leave.

Thanks @user1477249785 good tips. I feel as if working remotely (as we all are - it’s not just me) doesn’t help as you’ve less presence or rapport over Teams

No chance they are all, I dunno, meeting up for golf outside work? Any social media snooping you can do? Not sure what you can do about this exactly but sometimes it helps to have to complete picture. If you know they are generally making a plan at golf on Saturday, you request the meeting by email on Friday, type thing. I guess if you can notice any exact pattern, golf or no golf, you can try to be cunning to get ahead of it. Solidarity. Sounds awful and very difficult to change.

About 2 years ago, I joined a really prestigious international R&D firm. I'm an engineer and I mean it when I say that I couldn't have ended up anywhere "better". It's a highly academic environment on a beautiful campus with a genuinely rich history. I was thrilled.

I was placed into a quad with 3 men (I am a woman, btw!). They range in age from 45-60. I was 33. All 4 of us were different shades of Chief Engineer working on the same programme. All with different specialisms but operating at the same level, IYSWIM.

Immediately I noticed that I was not being invited to any meetings. Especially annoying was that I was left out of meetings with our customer (who is U.K. government). I'd often be left just reviewing and signing off documents - effectively doing their admin while they had all the fun in product demos and customer meetings.

I tried everything to weedle my way in but, within 6 months of joining, remote working was implemented due to Covid and so I couldn't just go sniffing around meeting rooms anymore. I literally would be left off the invites and wouldn't even have a WebEx link to join by!

Eventually I just decided to apply to a different programme. I'm still at the same firm but working on something different. I'm now one of only 2 Chief Engineers, but the other one (still male) is my age. Our project managers are also an even split of male and female which is great. This has all made a huge difference.

My old programme was a genuinely exciting thing to be working on. I felt like I was making U.K. history. My new programme is a yawn by comparison. And yet, I am enjoying my new programme so much more!

My whole family are happier too because I'm a lot more bearable on Sundays!

Anyway, I have no good advice to offer. I just "gave up". But I wanted to share my story because it's good to talk and... you know, solidarity sister!

We are all geographically dispersed apart from one cluster in london who may meet up.

It’s bloody lonely but I’m more concerned about the impact it’s having on my work than being part of the ‘group’. Their attitude absolutely stinks tho.

For reference it’s a group of 12 and there is only one other woman other than me.

@PeeAche I’m glad you’ve found something that’s working out better for you but it’s crap that you had to switch your programme just to get a more equitable culture.

My employer has been up for ‘best employer for females’ too which makes a total mockery of the situation

Have you spoken to the other woman about things at all? How long has she been there?

I’ve tried - maybe not hard enough. Her role is slightly different and so she is less reliant on collective decision making than I am.

I’m just unsure how to approach it.

I feel like I’ll be badged ‘emotional’ when I’m actually pointing to facts, and not isolated incidents.

@Blankspace4

I’ve tried - maybe not hard enough. Her role is slightly different and so she is less reliant on collective decision making than I am.

I’m just unsure how to approach it.

I feel like I’ll be badged ‘emotional’ when I’m actually pointing to facts, and not isolated incidents.

You probably will be. (Insert eye roll emoji, I don't know how to do one)

Another favourite is "she takes everything so personally"

Well. No shit.

It’s a really tough one.

I think what I might do, before getting to the stage of making complaint to HR, which it might come to, is target one member of the in group as my potential ‘in’. And I understand that you don’t want to be part of the group, just part of the work! Still I wonder if you can pick someone who you think is the right combination of being amenable and influential and work on them specifically, roping them into a joint project or some situation whereby they will have to bring you in to stuff and whereby they will also come to know and like you. This might not be applicable in your working situation but it’s just a thought as I’ve used a strategy like this before to some effect.

However I currently work in a all female company, and that’s not an accident.

I have no advice but I see this with a raft of DH's ex-colleagues. It really is jobs for the boys. A group of them have literally followed each other from company to company. They are all now pretty senior. One company in particular has a senior management team with men in their 40s. There are literally no women in senior positions.

It doesn't apply to me as I work in a very different sector but I would be looking very carefully at management teams and where women feature in the company.

I work in a very male dominated sector (with long standing relationships like you to break into to boot!) I've experienced some of what you had described as well. What I've realised very quickly is you can't get through to everyone. You say you have a woman in your team - make an effort to get to know her, start building that relationship. Secondly decide on 1-3 other 'targets' for your relationship building charm - work to get these on side and then you will start to have allies in these meetings. And 100% those meetings you were excluded from - book in an online meeting to be brought up to speed ASAP - play nice but firm. You can do this, get your sharp elbows out!

It will take time. I stopped giving a shit very quickly if I annoyed anyone, you are just as competent to be there as they are.

OP you definitely will be branded difficult. The thing is that you have to decide that you are not going to give a shit about that. What's the alternative? Tolerating this nonsense? They are not going to change through hope and charm. You need to get assertive and stick up for yourself. Good luck

I work in a very male dominated sector (with long standing relationships like you to break into to boot!) I've experienced some of what you had described as well. What I've realised very quickly is you can't get through to everyone. You say you have a woman in your team - make an effort to get to know her, start building that relationship. Secondly decide on 1-3 other 'targets' for your relationship building charm - work to get these on side and then you will start to have allies in these meetings.

This is good advice.

I too work in a male dominated environment. I'm also at least one grade (in some cases, two) lower than the rest of the management involved. And they've all worked together for years. I joined during Covid so everything was virtual so I had no allies and no track record. I tackled it by building relationships 1:1. I set up virtual coffees, asked for their thoughts/concerns on the challenges we were facing (note always use "we"), then made sure that I flexed my approach depending on the individual's style/agenda. In parallel, I pretty much ran a charm offensive with other stakeholders and the members of their teams (regardless of seniority - if you were part of the team, you mattered to me). Then I followed up on their concerns and alleviated them where possible. At all times I was professional but transparent. It was a lot of hard work but it got results!

There are a still a few of them who would happily throw me to the wolves (the only difference now is that they pretend to my face that they wouldn't - in fact right now I'm off work with Covid and one of them is merrily trying to undermine me while I'm off). But I have the absolute backing of the remainder. In fact, I have the backing of their senior management above them all. So despite me being the most junior person in the 'room', I have the trust of some very senior people now (more senior than the troublesome management men I'm dealing with). It guarantees that my voice is heard when senior management insist on "we're not doing it until Hundred says she's happy with it".

This makes it sound much easier than it was. It was the full cliched blood, sweat and tears and I was exhausted. But if I can do it OP, so can you!

I also work in a male dominated workplace, a company that loves to trumpet its equality and diversity credentials, while turning a blind eye to the subtle sexism which many of us will have experienced. I sympathise with anyone who’s started a new job in COVID/WFH times which must have made it even harder to establish yourself.

If you’re being excluded from meetings, you should impress upon senior participants the consequences of not being there, i.e. not being able discuss issues affecting your team. Keep the language very neutral and always frame it in terms of optimising working practices/customer delivery. Onwards and upwards OP!

That’s quite the thing - none of these men seem to care a jot about the customer. It is all solely about their own egos and power, from what I have consistently seen.

I work in a male dominated field too but I don't manage people. Many male engineers really dislike sharing their work space with female engineers because they feel they are 'better than this". It's depressing because you always have to work harder as you are on your own with every problem and you have to be a lot better than them to seen as you know your stuff. I do feel I have harder time than rest of my team.

I don't really have a solution to this but I do usually have one or two colleagues who don't behave like this which make it a bit more bearable.

It just makes me so angry that the culture is still this way - and at the same time my employer wins awards for being a great place for females to work. Yes - we get very generous mat pay (sure the misogynists love that as it means there are less women about as they are on paid leave ) - but the culture absolutely stinks. It’s such a boys club. Very isolating.

Tbf @Blankspace4 those awards are probably given out by blokes